Contracts mean nothing, they are nothing but paper. ISs can withdraw and rescind them at will. They are written by the IS to their benefit, and they very likely have terms that allow them to exit the contract. The other issue is enforcement, if an IS breaks contract what is an IT going to do, go to the country on their on coin and obtain an attorney and them file suite, Good luck. Contracts mean very little.
Talking to the other IT allows the IT to see if both ITs got the same story.
position accepted is reposted
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Reply
PsyGuy wrote:
> @Doctor
>
> Give them some time, and ask to contact the new IT for the identical
> position. If they put you in contact and the other IT confirms everything
> is on the level, than stop worrying, you wont know anything else until much
> closer to departure or until your on the ground. If they resist or refuse,
> than keep looking for a real appointment.
Doctor,
do this and have the school think you are a paranoid psycho. Sorry, but that is the WORST thing to do.
> @Doctor
>
> Give them some time, and ask to contact the new IT for the identical
> position. If they put you in contact and the other IT confirms everything
> is on the level, than stop worrying, you wont know anything else until much
> closer to departure or until your on the ground. If they resist or refuse,
> than keep looking for a real appointment.
Doctor,
do this and have the school think you are a paranoid psycho. Sorry, but that is the WORST thing to do.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: position accepted is reposted
A contract means more than a verbal agreement.
All my schools had very honest contracts – my brother (who is a labour lawyer at a union), checked them all thoroughly, so perhaps you have worked at some less-than-honest schools in the past.
It would be easier for the schools to just keep you baited a bit longer by making up an excuse rather than send you an actual contract, knowing that they might void it.
Of course there are schools who don't live up to their contracts (we've had a few topics here), but those are few and far between. If a school sends you a contract you can assume it's all ok, but if you want further assurance after that, ask them to book your plane ticket already because prices are supposedly low right now.
I might first find one or a few of their current teachers, and contact them (via Facebook perhaps, or via the member forum), and inquire about the school. If the school can't be trusted, someone might warn you to stay away.
All my schools had very honest contracts – my brother (who is a labour lawyer at a union), checked them all thoroughly, so perhaps you have worked at some less-than-honest schools in the past.
It would be easier for the schools to just keep you baited a bit longer by making up an excuse rather than send you an actual contract, knowing that they might void it.
Of course there are schools who don't live up to their contracts (we've had a few topics here), but those are few and far between. If a school sends you a contract you can assume it's all ok, but if you want further assurance after that, ask them to book your plane ticket already because prices are supposedly low right now.
I might first find one or a few of their current teachers, and contact them (via Facebook perhaps, or via the member forum), and inquire about the school. If the school can't be trusted, someone might warn you to stay away.
Reply
@SJ
There is nothing psycho about wanting to confer with another department member presumably in the same department and for the same position. The test is too see if they resist letting you contact each other.
@Heliotrope
We disagree
Contracts and verbal agreements mean nothing. A written contract just minimizes ambiguity and and possible disagreement, but they are written for and by the ISs for their benefit.
No its not easier, ISs and leadership know that a contract provides a false sense of security, if they keep you waiting then their keeping you looking, but once youve executed a contract, an IT is much lore likely to stop there job search.
There is nothing psycho about wanting to confer with another department member presumably in the same department and for the same position. The test is too see if they resist letting you contact each other.
@Heliotrope
We disagree
Contracts and verbal agreements mean nothing. A written contract just minimizes ambiguity and and possible disagreement, but they are written for and by the ISs for their benefit.
No its not easier, ISs and leadership know that a contract provides a false sense of security, if they keep you waiting then their keeping you looking, but once youve executed a contract, an IT is much lore likely to stop there job search.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: position accepted is reposted
First of all, proofread before you post, as it's a bit of a puzzle sometimes to figure out what you mean exactly. For example, 'there', 'their' and 'they're' don't all mean the same thing. I assume you're using speech-to-text, but that shouldn't be an excuse.
But to the matter at hand:
Most schools are not out to screw over their (potential) teachers. Not where it concerns the contract (my contracts have always been fair, benefitting both myself and the school), and also not during the hiring process.
Yes, there are some schools that are not to be trusted and should be burned to the ground, but that's a small minority. We read about those in some reviews, and we are wiser for doing so.
Obviously, candidates should be cautious, but not paranoid. However, you make it sound like the majority of schools are out to make their teachers' lives miserable.
My approach is to read the reviews here, and if they're dated or non-existing, inquire about the school another way: by means of contacting current staff, or ask around in my circle of IT friends. Luckily, I'm at a stage in my career where all the schools I would consider have been thoroughly reviewed.
It sounds like you have been at a few schools where the contracts were unfair to the teacher, and where recruitment involved lying to the candidate. That's tough, but it shouldn't be extrapolated to being the norm. None of my current and past colleagues have been screwed over, like you imply all schools do. That's not a scientific poll, but it tells me at least it's not widespread, or very common.
But to the matter at hand:
Most schools are not out to screw over their (potential) teachers. Not where it concerns the contract (my contracts have always been fair, benefitting both myself and the school), and also not during the hiring process.
Yes, there are some schools that are not to be trusted and should be burned to the ground, but that's a small minority. We read about those in some reviews, and we are wiser for doing so.
Obviously, candidates should be cautious, but not paranoid. However, you make it sound like the majority of schools are out to make their teachers' lives miserable.
My approach is to read the reviews here, and if they're dated or non-existing, inquire about the school another way: by means of contacting current staff, or ask around in my circle of IT friends. Luckily, I'm at a stage in my career where all the schools I would consider have been thoroughly reviewed.
It sounds like you have been at a few schools where the contracts were unfair to the teacher, and where recruitment involved lying to the candidate. That's tough, but it shouldn't be extrapolated to being the norm. None of my current and past colleagues have been screwed over, like you imply all schools do. That's not a scientific poll, but it tells me at least it's not widespread, or very common.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: position accepted is reposted
@PG - if the school has more than 600 students (easy to find out) then asking about it raises red flags with the school. If I were admin and got a question asking to give them the contact of the other teacher, I'd be thinking the person contacting me was not the person for the job...
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: position accepted is reposted
@shadowjack
While I agree that asking would raise red flags, why wouldn't it at a school with under 600 students?
While I agree that asking would raise red flags, why wouldn't it at a school with under 600 students?
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
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Re: position accepted is reposted
Helio - smaller departments and given that, less likelihood of openings in the department. But you're right. Maybe schools under 300 or 350?
Reply
@SJ
Two future colleagues, same department, and same subject, thats utter bunk that theres a red flag there, and if leadership denied that request sounds like an IS trying to hide something.
@Heliotrope
Very true, the vast majority of ISs are not out to take advantage of their ITs, but thats a red hearing, thats not the issue. The issue in this thread of the post is the protection and validity of contracts. Benevolent and malicious leadership, use the same contracts, just because a benevolent IS wouldn't the contract would certainly allow them to behave with malice with practically no ramifications, and with the same difficulty of enforcement for the IT and an IS with malice.
Two future colleagues, same department, and same subject, thats utter bunk that theres a red flag there, and if leadership denied that request sounds like an IS trying to hide something.
@Heliotrope
Very true, the vast majority of ISs are not out to take advantage of their ITs, but thats a red hearing, thats not the issue. The issue in this thread of the post is the protection and validity of contracts. Benevolent and malicious leadership, use the same contracts, just because a benevolent IS wouldn't the contract would certainly allow them to behave with malice with practically no ramifications, and with the same difficulty of enforcement for the IT and an IS with malice.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: position accepted is reposted
@PG - or smacks of desperation and a bit of a needy person = my take.
Perfectly normal = your take.
I suspect most people doing hiring would look at it closer to option 1.
Option in between - they say it is for another opening in the department and it's fine. But to ask for the email of the other person? Not kosher.
Perfectly normal = your take.
I suspect most people doing hiring would look at it closer to option 1.
Option in between - they say it is for another opening in the department and it's fine. But to ask for the email of the other person? Not kosher.
Re: position accepted is reposted
We provide a list of teachers who have volunteered to be contacts for candidates and incoming teachers. So you can pick anyone on the list and ask anything you want. But there's no guarantee that you'll get a guy in the same department, since it's all on a volunteer basis. It's still reasonably transparent though, and if you asked us for someone in a specific department, I'd try to find someone willing.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: position accepted is reposted
Yes, that's what I would do: contact a current teacher.
As a recruiter, I would find it a bit of a weird request if one new hire would ask the contact details of the other new hire before contracts are signed. I might give it to him/her, but I would wonder why he/she'd ask. That's not to say I would pull an offer over it though.
But either way, there's not much useful information you can get from the other hire for the same job I'd say.
Yes, he can confirm what you've been told, but that says nothing. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't tell him anything that will give you a clue that they might not give you your job, if they're indeed playing you.
Perhaps @sid can give you a better insight in what they might/might not think though, as I'm not in leadership/recruiting myself. We're all just guessing of course what a specific recruiter will/won't think and do/won't do.
Don't be too paranoid – chances are good that the school is on the level, if they don't have very bad reviews on ISR.
As a recruiter, I would find it a bit of a weird request if one new hire would ask the contact details of the other new hire before contracts are signed. I might give it to him/her, but I would wonder why he/she'd ask. That's not to say I would pull an offer over it though.
But either way, there's not much useful information you can get from the other hire for the same job I'd say.
Yes, he can confirm what you've been told, but that says nothing. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't tell him anything that will give you a clue that they might not give you your job, if they're indeed playing you.
Perhaps @sid can give you a better insight in what they might/might not think though, as I'm not in leadership/recruiting myself. We're all just guessing of course what a specific recruiter will/won't think and do/won't do.
Don't be too paranoid – chances are good that the school is on the level, if they don't have very bad reviews on ISR.
Discussion
Those volunteer lists of current ITs that an IS will provide are all cheerleaders, none of them will give you anything other than the ISs standard line.
If the IS gives you the contact information of the other IT thats been hired, its likely because they have nothing to hide and the offers are on the level. If they dont, than there are probably incongruities between the two offers.
ISR isnt a guarantee of any kind, many ITs simply dont know of this website, or the ISs use scare tactics to keep ITs from posting negative reviews.
If the IS gives you the contact information of the other IT thats been hired, its likely because they have nothing to hide and the offers are on the level. If they dont, than there are probably incongruities between the two offers.
ISR isnt a guarantee of any kind, many ITs simply dont know of this website, or the ISs use scare tactics to keep ITs from posting negative reviews.
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Heliotrope
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am
Re: position accepted is reposted
Yeah, I would find a current teacher via their website and then look them up on Facebook. Perhaps don't ask them using your own FB-profile, as it might reflect negatively on you. The 'cheerleaders'-list can still be used for practical questions about the school and the city it's in of course.
Not giving you the contact information of the other IT who's been hired can have other reasons (privacy for example), so since there's not much to be found out by asking them for it, and given that it would look a bit weird doing so, I personally wouldn't bother.
Then again, if it sets your mind at ease, and since it's unlikely your offer will get pulled because of it, you could also just go ahead and ask.
If I say "... if they don't have very bad reviews on ISR", that means they would have reviews on ISR, but they're not very bad. A few recent positive reviews would put my mind at ease for sure. If they don't have any reviews, yes, then that wouldn't tell you anything. If they have loads of bad (recent) reviews, proceed with caution.
Not giving you the contact information of the other IT who's been hired can have other reasons (privacy for example), so since there's not much to be found out by asking them for it, and given that it would look a bit weird doing so, I personally wouldn't bother.
Then again, if it sets your mind at ease, and since it's unlikely your offer will get pulled because of it, you could also just go ahead and ask.
If I say "... if they don't have very bad reviews on ISR", that means they would have reviews on ISR, but they're not very bad. A few recent positive reviews would put my mind at ease for sure. If they don't have any reviews, yes, then that wouldn't tell you anything. If they have loads of bad (recent) reviews, proceed with caution.