2019-20 jobs
Re: 2019-20 jobs
@mamava
If a school has the resources, I see nothing wrong with hiring teachers with trailing spouses. The worst experience I had was spouses of administrators who had no pedagogical content knowledge, had far too many complaints from students, got poor exam results, yet continued to earn big bucks as lead teachers, all thanks to their admin hubbies. No school would hire these folks if they were single.
If a school has the resources, I see nothing wrong with hiring teachers with trailing spouses. The worst experience I had was spouses of administrators who had no pedagogical content knowledge, had far too many complaints from students, got poor exam results, yet continued to earn big bucks as lead teachers, all thanks to their admin hubbies. No school would hire these folks if they were single.
Re: 2019-20 jobs
I agree, I don't have a problem at all with trailing spouses/dependents. I have heard and seen schools who are fine hiring couples with 2 kids, a single teacher with a kid (or 2 if the school allows), and a trailing spouse with no kids. When it comes to 1 teacher with a trailing spouse AND children, those are much less common in what I've seen. Of course, teachers are hired in those circumstances, but it seems to be more challenging.
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Re: 2019-20 jobs
At my school singles/couples stay between two and three years. Families stay way longer. Some have been here 10 years plus. We seem to have a policy of hiring people with kids. It works at our school and turnover is low.
Re: 2019-20 jobs
A few years ago my school took the position that they would hire the best teacher available. Sometimes that means a single teacher but often it means a teacher with dependents, sometimes a trailing spouse and sometimes a trailing spouse and kids. What that means in terms of longevity and commitment to the school I can't tell you.
Discussion
@Heliotrope
No they dont, if they wanted the BEST ITs they would be payng six figure coin, Id like a Ferrari at a Honda price as well, but thats not realistic. What they ant is the best they can get in their budget thats available. Families are cost, which effect the budget and if that was true the LW, wouldnt have been given the "we will wait and see".
What benefits of diversity? If diversity mattered there would be a lot fewer Caucasian ITs in IE. Recruiters dont get rewarded for spending more coin.
Your anchor kids is still bunk, its still just rationalization of an expense without value, the Honda may have cup holders, and that may be a benefit but it doesnt make it a Ferrari.
I agree though, there are ISs that wont blink about the coin, those are typically elite tier ISs, and they are a very, very, very small part of IE.
@mamava
That demographic describes the LW, trailing spouse with kids.
@mathman85
If they have the surplus resources, otherwise the coin would be better served to other goals and costs in the budget. What value or advantage is there in hiring a an average 'single' IT over an average IT with a trailing spouse and two kids.
The real issue is ego, ITs think they are better, bring more value than they really do.
I do concur wholeheartedly with you on the "teaching spouses" whose only qualification for the classroom was being married to leadership, though whats worse is the leadership who are family to ownership and thats the entirety of their qualifications for the role.
@mysharona
Thats just marketing though, what IS says their policy is to recruit the mediocre, everyone says they want the best.
No they dont, if they wanted the BEST ITs they would be payng six figure coin, Id like a Ferrari at a Honda price as well, but thats not realistic. What they ant is the best they can get in their budget thats available. Families are cost, which effect the budget and if that was true the LW, wouldnt have been given the "we will wait and see".
What benefits of diversity? If diversity mattered there would be a lot fewer Caucasian ITs in IE. Recruiters dont get rewarded for spending more coin.
Your anchor kids is still bunk, its still just rationalization of an expense without value, the Honda may have cup holders, and that may be a benefit but it doesnt make it a Ferrari.
I agree though, there are ISs that wont blink about the coin, those are typically elite tier ISs, and they are a very, very, very small part of IE.
@mamava
That demographic describes the LW, trailing spouse with kids.
@mathman85
If they have the surplus resources, otherwise the coin would be better served to other goals and costs in the budget. What value or advantage is there in hiring a an average 'single' IT over an average IT with a trailing spouse and two kids.
The real issue is ego, ITs think they are better, bring more value than they really do.
I do concur wholeheartedly with you on the "teaching spouses" whose only qualification for the classroom was being married to leadership, though whats worse is the leadership who are family to ownership and thats the entirety of their qualifications for the role.
@mysharona
Thats just marketing though, what IS says their policy is to recruit the mediocre, everyone says they want the best.
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Re: Discussion
PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> No they dont
I want to say "Yes, they do." but I don't want to pretend I know it all for sure, like some people.
They DO want the best selection of the candidates that apply at least, and quite a few schools have a hiring budget that allows them to also hire teachers with trailing spouses and/or dependents. Obviously they can't hire only teachers with dependents and/or trailing spouses (and they shouldn't), but they are certainly free to hire a few.
I once talked to a group of 4 recruiters at a fair about this very subject (at the hotel bar after the fair had ended), and they all said they prefer to have a mix of teachers at their schools, and these talks were social and when I was still a single teacher, so weren't telling me what I wanted to hear (they were getting quite drunk actually, and were painfully honest). These were upper tier 2 and lower tier 1 schools, not top tier 1 or elite.
Recruiters don't get rewarded for spending more coin, but they do get rewarded for getting great teachers, even if some of these teachers come with trailing spouses and/or dependents.
Diversity applies to more than just skin colour. It's good for a school to have teachers with different backgrounds and in different stages of their life. I would very much like to see fewer Caucasian teachers actually, also for the benefit of the students. I hope I never have to work at a school that wants to hire the whitest teachers they can find, as part of a marketing effort.
Anchors can be very good for a school. I've been at a upper tier 2 school where every two years all the young & single (and therefore cheap) teachers would leave, since a lot of them just want to move on to a different country every two years.
Teachers with families would typically stay a lot longer (6 years at least, but many 10+), and it's from this pool of teachers that new members of SLT would emerge, and these are the teachers that really know the school, feel responsible for it's wellbeing, make an effort to improve it, and guide the new teachers where needed. If you only hire the cheapest teachers your school will never be truly great.
> @Heliotrope
>
> No they dont
I want to say "Yes, they do." but I don't want to pretend I know it all for sure, like some people.
They DO want the best selection of the candidates that apply at least, and quite a few schools have a hiring budget that allows them to also hire teachers with trailing spouses and/or dependents. Obviously they can't hire only teachers with dependents and/or trailing spouses (and they shouldn't), but they are certainly free to hire a few.
I once talked to a group of 4 recruiters at a fair about this very subject (at the hotel bar after the fair had ended), and they all said they prefer to have a mix of teachers at their schools, and these talks were social and when I was still a single teacher, so weren't telling me what I wanted to hear (they were getting quite drunk actually, and were painfully honest). These were upper tier 2 and lower tier 1 schools, not top tier 1 or elite.
Recruiters don't get rewarded for spending more coin, but they do get rewarded for getting great teachers, even if some of these teachers come with trailing spouses and/or dependents.
Diversity applies to more than just skin colour. It's good for a school to have teachers with different backgrounds and in different stages of their life. I would very much like to see fewer Caucasian teachers actually, also for the benefit of the students. I hope I never have to work at a school that wants to hire the whitest teachers they can find, as part of a marketing effort.
Anchors can be very good for a school. I've been at a upper tier 2 school where every two years all the young & single (and therefore cheap) teachers would leave, since a lot of them just want to move on to a different country every two years.
Teachers with families would typically stay a lot longer (6 years at least, but many 10+), and it's from this pool of teachers that new members of SLT would emerge, and these are the teachers that really know the school, feel responsible for it's wellbeing, make an effort to improve it, and guide the new teachers where needed. If you only hire the cheapest teachers your school will never be truly great.
Reply
@Heliotrope
Nothing is free, no leadership gets rewarded for spending more than they have too, ownership might not know they didnt have too, but with payroll such a huge part of an ISs budget any savings at all means coin for something else. Larger classroom budgets, a special purchase of new microscopes, more materials for the theater or art department. Kids add nothing, and your anchor kids rational is still bunk.
They were telling you the socially acceptable answer, hat did you expect them to say, we discriminate based on "something". Thats what it comes down too, if your a recruiter and you say you only hire singles or teaching couples with no dependents your saying you discriminate, and not only does a recruiter/leadership not want to be identified as discriminating, but it may very well be unlawful.
They dont know your a great IT, this is an interview, and even if they could "great" doesnt mean anything. To one recruiter it means great scores, to another it means single pretty and blonde, to another it means entertaining, to another it means popular, and yet to another it means getting your documentation in on time, to another it means never being late. Further, the standard of "great" is meaningless, EVERY DT and IT thinks their great if they are in a classroom, ever meet an IT that said, they suck, or their horrible, or average, or mediocre, doesnt happen.
ITs arent professional athletes, or celebrities, there are LOTS of ITs and lots of DTS there is no shortage of single ITs that are "great". Saying otherwise is just ego.
Who says its good for an IS to have ITs of different backgrounds, why? Whats the value of diversity or is the value of diversity solely for the sake of diversity. Is teaching something thats innate, and thus certain individuals will have a genetic or biological advantage over others, otherwise if success, competence and proficiency in teaching is learned, and the capacity for learning across singles and those with families is equal, than why does it matter if all of an ISs ITs are single or teaching couples, since those ITs cost less than those with families. Does having kids make an IT a better learner, prove thats true and fine, but I dont think you can. I think your statement that the benefit of diversity in terms of family status is one of those claims, often characterized as self evident, are actually meritless and offered for the sake of political correctness.
Why are anchors good for ISs, but assuming its true, whats the value. I think airplane seats with a minimum 43' of pitch are good for passengers, but that level of pitch comes at the cost of fewer seats and thus less revenue, for increased seat pitch to have value, those fewer passengers have to be willing to pay more for it. Will parents pay more tuition/fees for anchor kids? My position is no, they wont, they just dont care. Will those anchor kids reduce costs by reducing turnover, maybe, but I am REALLY comfortable claiming that the cost savings is not equal to the full value of another IT or even half, or even a quarter.
The vast majority of ISs will never be truly great, again, its an issue of definitions, every IS says its great and first tier, but the vast majority of ISs are very stable especially at upper tiers. Most of your claims of value "teachers that really know the school, feel responsible for it's well being, make an effort to improve it, and guide the new teachers where needed", those all sound nice but they arent really worth anything. What do you need to really know about an IS the secret handshake, responsible for its well being, you can fake that, improve it, why new ITs cant want to improve things? Guide new ITs, isnt that what orientation is for, you need a map of key points and a contact list, otherwise ITs dont want the guidance of veterans, they know everything, why would some family person whose "been there" know anything worth knowing. Your pitch is nothing more than please pay more for warm, fuzzy, highly subjective, and extremely difficult to quantify characteristics, because I have a family and want the job, and my family is going to cost significantly more.
Nothing is free, no leadership gets rewarded for spending more than they have too, ownership might not know they didnt have too, but with payroll such a huge part of an ISs budget any savings at all means coin for something else. Larger classroom budgets, a special purchase of new microscopes, more materials for the theater or art department. Kids add nothing, and your anchor kids rational is still bunk.
They were telling you the socially acceptable answer, hat did you expect them to say, we discriminate based on "something". Thats what it comes down too, if your a recruiter and you say you only hire singles or teaching couples with no dependents your saying you discriminate, and not only does a recruiter/leadership not want to be identified as discriminating, but it may very well be unlawful.
They dont know your a great IT, this is an interview, and even if they could "great" doesnt mean anything. To one recruiter it means great scores, to another it means single pretty and blonde, to another it means entertaining, to another it means popular, and yet to another it means getting your documentation in on time, to another it means never being late. Further, the standard of "great" is meaningless, EVERY DT and IT thinks their great if they are in a classroom, ever meet an IT that said, they suck, or their horrible, or average, or mediocre, doesnt happen.
ITs arent professional athletes, or celebrities, there are LOTS of ITs and lots of DTS there is no shortage of single ITs that are "great". Saying otherwise is just ego.
Who says its good for an IS to have ITs of different backgrounds, why? Whats the value of diversity or is the value of diversity solely for the sake of diversity. Is teaching something thats innate, and thus certain individuals will have a genetic or biological advantage over others, otherwise if success, competence and proficiency in teaching is learned, and the capacity for learning across singles and those with families is equal, than why does it matter if all of an ISs ITs are single or teaching couples, since those ITs cost less than those with families. Does having kids make an IT a better learner, prove thats true and fine, but I dont think you can. I think your statement that the benefit of diversity in terms of family status is one of those claims, often characterized as self evident, are actually meritless and offered for the sake of political correctness.
Why are anchors good for ISs, but assuming its true, whats the value. I think airplane seats with a minimum 43' of pitch are good for passengers, but that level of pitch comes at the cost of fewer seats and thus less revenue, for increased seat pitch to have value, those fewer passengers have to be willing to pay more for it. Will parents pay more tuition/fees for anchor kids? My position is no, they wont, they just dont care. Will those anchor kids reduce costs by reducing turnover, maybe, but I am REALLY comfortable claiming that the cost savings is not equal to the full value of another IT or even half, or even a quarter.
The vast majority of ISs will never be truly great, again, its an issue of definitions, every IS says its great and first tier, but the vast majority of ISs are very stable especially at upper tiers. Most of your claims of value "teachers that really know the school, feel responsible for it's well being, make an effort to improve it, and guide the new teachers where needed", those all sound nice but they arent really worth anything. What do you need to really know about an IS the secret handshake, responsible for its well being, you can fake that, improve it, why new ITs cant want to improve things? Guide new ITs, isnt that what orientation is for, you need a map of key points and a contact list, otherwise ITs dont want the guidance of veterans, they know everything, why would some family person whose "been there" know anything worth knowing. Your pitch is nothing more than please pay more for warm, fuzzy, highly subjective, and extremely difficult to quantify characteristics, because I have a family and want the job, and my family is going to cost significantly more.
Re: 2019-20 jobs
@PG
As usual, you missed the point. An experienced teacher with strong pedagogical content knowledge with a trailing spouse will have more impact on students than an average single teacher who has a shaky understanding of the subject. My kids wouldn't mind learning from the former even if (s)he has a big ego.
As usual, you missed the point. An experienced teacher with strong pedagogical content knowledge with a trailing spouse will have more impact on students than an average single teacher who has a shaky understanding of the subject. My kids wouldn't mind learning from the former even if (s)he has a big ego.
Re: 2019-20 jobs
Well - speaking from experience - kids and a trailing spouse makes it like 10,000 times harder. I had an email from an IS yesterday, they wanted to setup a skype interview within a day or two. I emailed back immediately, told them I'd be ready to interview at 6 am my time and I mentioned that I have a trailing spouse and 2 kids. I never even got an email back; I'm guessing they just scratched my name off a list.
When I was applying as a single teacher, I'd have multiple offers by now.
I think psyguy is right - it's too early in the hiring season for me. I'll have to wait until after the fairs at the earliest.
Another option I'm considering in applying and going over as a single teacher and having my wife and kids join me later and take on the whole visa hassle myself.
When I was applying as a single teacher, I'd have multiple offers by now.
I think psyguy is right - it's too early in the hiring season for me. I'll have to wait until after the fairs at the earliest.
Another option I'm considering in applying and going over as a single teacher and having my wife and kids join me later and take on the whole visa hassle myself.