My advice is to talk to a lawyer. The school can't just make up arbitrary penalties that are not in your contract or in the country's labor laws.

If you really want to get out and they have all that money, lawyers fees might be worth it.

Cookiesncream or whatever the hell your name is:

Go play with your cookies by yourself.

Psyguy,

haha, how did I want to deny people the right to examine monthly wages? This thread is a total circus! I totally admit to being a big part of it, though. These debates have gone full circle. I never thought Psyguy would be lecturing on the power of love on ISR. I just said I don't want to marry someone I work with. It makes my world too small. Again, this is a preference of mine.

I was saying that it seems that the most useful way of looking at the costs and benefits of an entire career choice would be to look at the costs and benefits of the entire career from beginning to end, rather than take one tax free salary of someone in Saudi Arabia and compare that to a beginner teacher in Alabama or London. Why get caught up in 30 day periods? I do see the worth of looking at monthly pay checks, but I think this lens is too narrow to examine a career.

I define a career as something you enjoy, can improve on, can make enough money not avoid poverty later on in life, and, if you want to, reproduce. Anything that does not meet this criteria is simply a job, hobby or volunteering, in my opinion. Your definition of a career could be different, but here is what Cambridge has to say:

"the job or series of jobs that you do during your working life, especially if you continue to get better jobs and earn more money:
He's hoping for a career in the police force/as a police officer.
When he retires he will be able to look back over a brilliant career (= a working life that has been very successful).
It helps if you can move a few rungs up the career ladder before taking time off to have a baby.
I took this new job because I felt that the career prospects were much better."

I figured it would be better to look at the total trajectory of a teacher's financial and professional life to get a true sense of what the costs, benefits and constraints are in both lifestyle choices. Yes, everyone has their preferences and their dislikes. That's the great thing about having choices. And if IE becomes a job, it becomes a job that people can choose to do or not.

Dear Dave and Joe,

Costs and benefits are different to people. Yes. This is true. IT has it's benefits. But within both of your frames, it is very limited to one lifestyle - unless you have two teachers earning, like Nathan says. But why the hell would I want to marry a teacher, live with that teacher and work with that teacher? I couldn't do it, personally.

Dave, my comparison was Bangladesh and Seattle. I used these as examples of why we can't simply compare salaries after taxes. There are far too many variables. And comparing across a lifetime is much more useful. I do appreciate your accounting skills, though. And you mentioned that remittance and conversion costs aren't a factor? This adds up to thousands of dollars over an IT's career. If you're invested in a brokerage in another country and you remit money into your 70's, this could add up to 10's of thousand of dollars. And then you factor in currency fluctuations and this could be more.

Neither one of you could deny - Dave, somewhere in Northern Europe with a long trail behind you, and Joe, stuck in thralls of the PC epicentre, also known as teacher's college- that IT, although providing freedom and opportunities, also comes with constraints and a limited lifestyle.

Me? I had kids. I don't regret this, but I can say that life as a domestic teacher would be far less stressful with kids. There are just fewer variables as a DT. I don't have to worry about things like whether a school will hire me because of my children. In Seattle, we have very good schools. As crazy as my parents are, they help out big time when I go back home. As a parent, they are a resource.

But if you are happy - like Joe mentioned - living in Thailand on a salary of 80,000 baht a month and don't care too much about retirement or having kids, and you just want to spend your last days drinking Chang in Issaan, then ok. That's your prerogative. IT sounds like a good racket and a young man's dream in that case... But just don't get your Gig or girlfriend pregnant. Your outlook will change.

I've been on the trail for a few years now, and I have known many IT's in their late 50's with nothing. You never see this with a DTs.

I think it's a false comparison to simply compare and contrast monthly pay checks in DT and IT. Even if you're living in a cheaper country, the costs - opportunity and financial - are more in a foreign country. Expats in professional fields get paid more to balance these costs.

Yes, it is more expensive to live in Seattle than Bangladesh, but an established Seattle DT doesn't have to pay as much for:

remittance fees
conversion fees
moving fees (most schools don't have pay enough for this).
banking fees in two countries
western food and conveniences
clean parks and air
suitable fitness centres
skype
possible double taxation
two driver's license fees
travelling to a relaxing place
recruiting fees
and on and on...It costs money to be an Expats!
much more for brokerage fees

And health costs:

greater chance of getting sick from food
travel viruses
carcinogenic exposure
immunizations
food poisoning
water and and air pollution

The IT in Bangladesh risks:

a better chance in to getting robbed
a better chance in getting in a car accident
a better chance of being targeted for scams

A DT in Seattle has the benefit of the following:

investing in some kind of Real Estate to live in (even just a shoe box)
tax deductible 401 k Pension contributions
a pension plan (yes, this now going by the wayside)
family resources to share
public parks and clean air
a chance to work part-time if needed
closer to family and friends, in case of illness
labour laws
disability insurance
owning a vehicle that he/she can transfer from provinces and states
the ability to move into another field. Experience in DT is much more marketable than IT in America. Your experience is easier to track and confirm

due process (as we know, many of these schools, including - "first tier" - don't follow due process and/or contracts)
a better shot at legal representation and more accountability from admin and students (there is a poor bugger on the other forum who was slandered by students who claimed he was a sexual predator)
tax deductible tuition costs as residents

Hey, I admit that working in DT isn't all sunshine and roses, but even with a bigger salary, it seems to me that IT has much more risks and expenses to simply compare and contrast monthly salaries and cost of living ratios. You have to look at the whole career to really get the big picture

It's like Andrew Hallam said in "poor Teacher" - IT is front loaded and DT is backloaded in benefits. What this means is this: IT's may might have more disposable income at the end of the first year, but the DT is often much better at the end of a career. You can't compare San Francisco to Bangladesh or Bahrain either - all salaries being equal. There's just no comparison in the quality of life

I think in the future, IT will only work out in the long run for people who have money, and/or for people who start investing for retirement early in their twenties

After thinking about this, I think that the biggest impact on IT has been DT. The over saturation of DTs, the devaluation of the BA/BSc, the ease of getting a teacher's certification in the US now, and the rising costs in Western countries have all greatly increased the supply of teachers

Probably a good half of "teachers" who are in IT don't even have a degree in Education either. The barrier to entry into IT is much easier than the oversaturated DT market as well

All in all, IT is like the airline industry that was once a prestigious field catering to a select few expats and wealthy locals. Overtime, the demand for flights has created these budget airlines with crappy service, communication, and underpaid and under qualified (or very qualified from developing countries) pilots and flight attendants who just want to do something new and travel the world. And the passengers hope these people know what they are doing and put their trust in them, in order to save a few bucks.

Mqwaid:

It's clear you are dealing with little turds now, and they really thought this smear presentation through. I'm sorry to hear this. I obviously would document everything on your personal email, in case things go sideways. I would also start bccing yourself on any future communications to these kids and parents. And any presentations in this class in the future should be filmed and also documented. You can let the little turds either think harder about who's watching, or you can build a case against them.

If you decide to leave at the end of the year, you can hire a lawyer on your way out of the country and begin a case. If things go sideways with the school and you get pushed out, you can file a suit against them for a number of things. This all depends on which country you are in and where you plan to teach in the future. Obviously, find a lawyer who is not connected to the board and be careful which firm you go to. These boards are often super connected through other businesses they and their families are involved in.

I know someone who sued for something similar to this and won. Just be careful who you talk to about this right now. Don't talk to your coworkers about any legal action or legal advice you may be taking. Your safety and career could be affected.

Or, you could do nothing at all and wait it out.

Good luck.

@ OP:

Can I ask why you let them complete the presentation or even go further with it? I would have kicked them out first slide and stopped the class right there. This is not East Asia, is it? This has to be the Middle East. Can you confirm?

Another thing you could have done differently would have been to start filming the presentation.

Nathan,


I wasn't chastising anyone for their answers, other than TP who was quick to respond to the question with the tired, sanctimonious, "I don't teach for money and can't believe other people do" schtick.

I thought your original response to my post was useful when you mentioned the influence of DT's and disposable incomes in the states. I wasn't asking for graphs and bars at all -just some - and observations- not judgements. I've had conversations with people on this topic and always found it fascinating how many variables there are at play. You commented at the beginning that you thought it was a great post because it relates to all of us, and now you think it's a waste of time and a burden to address. Whatever dude. If you want to get butt hurt and change your opinion because I offended you, I don't care. It just shows what kind of person you are. I stand by science over bias and judgement.

We got a lot of interesting responses here, and I'm sure people got something out of it. I know I did. I don't think it's too much to talk about our industry, especially when it pertains to all of us. We should all do some homework on our industry. It would be irresponsible for me as a father, if I did not.

Thanks for the recommendation for the Economist magazine. I've never heard of that. Great thinking.

@Dave:

As much as I've disagreed with you in the past and accused you of being deranged, I do appreciate the effort you put in here. You don't take things too personally and you keep trucking on with responses. Thank you. I've learned that studying our market is a very big, elusive job. I'll look up those journals you are referring to. Econ is a great way to see the world.

Keep it honest, Dave.

Cheers,

Nathan,

good answer from a business teacher - "Economists can't predict markets, so why would we talk about it here? Go read a magazine or the internet" Are you seriously a business teacher? What the _____ is the point of these forums, unless we can learn something?

What is a forum? The word comes from Latin and essentially means a place to have debates and discussions. You're telling me that a teacher's forum is not a place to talk about the education industry and make economic predictions and examine the current market based on economic principles?

Are you for real? This has to be Thames Pirate's husband or relative, or even Thames Pirate. Are you going to try and sell me mutual funds now?

If I am missing something here and this is, in fact, a forum faux pas to want discuss our industry in-depth, can someone else chime in? I'll own it if someone explains to me why. I really will. Social conventions exist for a reason, for the most part. But for now, I'm flabbergasted.

For now, I maintain your comment is moronic, Nathan. If someone wants to explain where I am wrong or what I am missing, then - again - I'll gladly own it. I don't mean to sound like a ____ here, but I'm baffled.

Anyone want to add to this? I'd like to hear other opinions on forum etiquette.

Thames Pirate,

this isn't a popularity contest and it's not about liking someone or disliking someone. As subscribers to this website, we should try to help each other with the best information we can offer. Why would we pay to banter back and forth and trade insults when we can do this for free anywhere on the internet?

My problem is how you have somehow made this thread about you, and how you continue to maintain that you have expertise in the subject, when you clearly do not.

I do not know much about Economics (I admit this), but I know examining our changing industry means looking at the complex interplay of teachers, schools, recruitment agencies, teacher's colleges, Western economies, Eastern economies, the growing prevalence of technology and internet, world military power, the lingua francas of today and tomorrow, the changing status of the profession, teacher's unions, international health care, retirement plans, globalization, nationalism, the ESL market, diplomatic relations, Brexit, the EU, inflation in Venezuela, currency wars, work visa requirements, trade agreements, tax free status of for-profit schools, funding for non-profit schools, political stability, labor laws, legal systems, the Trump presidency and, yes, Economic principles.

I think this is an important subject, as this will affect us all greatly. It is worth examining. Obviously, none of us can predict markets 100 percent, but we can make more informed decisions based on current conditions.

Thames Pirate:

"It all boils down to supply and demand." - Wow, Milton Friedman would be proud. Dave actually did add to the thread - something you haven't, other than create drama. Dave, at least, has tried to engage with the question through a positive economic framework: with a description of the market in an - way with data and numbers. He then has tried to make a prediction based on this data. You, on the other hand, keep adding your own value judgements to your opinions, instead of looking at data, make up your own definitions, and are using the thread to instigate arguments with people you have grievances with. I can imagine what it's like working with you.

Again, here are are the questions: Why are the IT salaries going down? What will this market be in twenty years? Economists, (it goes without saying, that this answer will come with data) can you answer?

And here is a simple explanation of why you are wasting our time. Read the following definitions:


Off of Wikipedia for you:


NORMATIVE ECONOMICS (as opposed to positive economics) is a part of economics that expresses value or normative judgments about economic fairness or what the outcome of the economy or goals of public policy ought to be. Normative economic statements are opinion based, so they cannot be proved or disproved.

POSITIVE ECONOMICS (as opposed to normative economics) is the branch of economics that concerns the description and explanation of economic phenomena.[1] It focuses on facts and cause-and-effect behavioral relationships and includes the development and testing of economics theories.[2] An earlier term was value-free (German: wertfrei) economics

Positive economics as science, concerns - of economic behavior.[3] A standard theoretical statement of positive economics as operationally meaningful theorems is in Paul Samuelson's Foundations of Economic - (1947). Positive economics as such avoids economic value judgements. For example, a positive economic theory might describe how money supply growth affects inflation, but it does not provide any instruction on what policy ought to be followed.


The question was clearly asked for the latter -, as most economic - is.

Here is a play by play of how you have bumbled through the thread:

First, you bungled up the question with your own value judgements of "entitled teachers", and then went on to pontificate on your teaching philosophy and lifestyle preferences. Second, when called on your impractical philosophy, you went on to brag about your financial planner husband being the reason why you are not one of these "entitled teachers" who cares about money. Third, you bumbled your way through an - of the market with your own definitions of what is and what isn't an International teacher and what is and what isn't a good teacher. Lastly, you attacked Dave (you clearly don't like and have a problem with) who did try to use data and make predictions with the data in an objective way.


You've had conflicts with nearly all of the posters on this thread. There is a common denominator here. Do you see it?

@snowphantom:


Thank you for your reply. That puts things in perspective.

Thames Pirate:

Yes, I admit, I would like an echo chamber. Now repeat after me -

I will stay on topic.

I will critically read what people write.

I won't pretend to be an expert on something I don't know anything about, when other people ask for information.

And most importantly, I won't claim to more dedicated as a teacher than others, because I have the privilege of not having to worry about money.

Are you ready? Now echo!

Great. You have a Business education! I humbly ask you this question then: do you know any Economist/Economic theory I can study to better understand my question? I was hoping for something more than than anecdotal evidence. Do you have an idea/framework? Yes? No? I don't want a pissing contest here. I really just want have a better grasp of this industry.

@ Nathan:

Just more time wasting. I was asking a specific Economics question directed at business educated people, and the thread was hijacked with irrelevance. This is the equivalent of somebody on here asking a science question, and then a creationist jumping on board to offer their beliefs and denounce evolution, instead of answering the question with accepted EVIDENCE, REASON and LOGIC.

How is this an obnoxious request? I don't get it. I am asking for useful information from educated people on this subject (which I acknowledge I don't know), and I have every right to do so. I accept that Economic theory is more insightful than my own bias and certainly has more predictive power and credibility. This is obnoxious? You and TP, on the other hand, instead of using Economic theories to tackle the question, want to conflate the topic with a diatribe on entitled teachers. Who is being obnoxious and thick here?

Again, answer the question with evidence and theory or go away, or hopefully wait for someone who knows what the hell they are talking about, so we can all learn together. Isn't this what Education is all about? Is it strange to ask a group of university educated people to use their training to answer a question? Are you really a teacher? I do not see the arrogance of asking for informed advice. Do I admit there are useless, entitled teachers who expect too much? Yes! But I recognize that this is another topic. And I genuinely want to know what an Economist thinks. I admit I don't know how to answer my question!

Do you not get the difference?