Sure, if the IT knows to do that. Once the visa is denied, however . . . .

Visas seriously are denied all the time for unforeseen reasons. I have experienced it myself--not the visa in that case (it was in the EU and I have EU citizenship), but maybe the teaching credential isn't recognized (which can have a domino effect on the visa or the job as the school needs to stay accredited, for example). In our scenario there were at least four of us, one of whom had a host country credential from another state. The school did everything right, but the regional authorities did not recognize our teaching licenses. Boom, potentially no more job, and for those whose visa was dependent on the job, no more visa. Either way the vacancies were advertised. As far as I know the other three got things worked out, but it wasn't easy.

Sometimes the country changes its policies. Sometimes visas are denied for something the school didn't think would be a problem. There are countries where mail gets lost, documents are misread, or some official is simply crabby and denies an application. None of those are daily occurrences for ITs, but they do happen.

So yes, visa problems.

You seriously enjoy arguing with me just on principle, don't you? I can't even agree with you without you finding fault with what I say. I said your list was great, and I brought up another reason. None of the scenarios you described were necessarily very common (some more than others). This isn't common, but it does happen.

So they DO go to the fair for the meet and greet or to staff positions for which they haven't found that unicorn. Well, then they are going to the SA fairs.

Your "ISS consultants are more proactive" claim has no support and no explanation of how they actually give you an edge. Again, the unicorns don't need the agencies, and to fill the gaps when they can't find unicorns, the schools use SA.

I think I have made my case pretty thoroughly.

Okay, you are officially a nasty person. You make something totally normal into something torrid, use tongue in cheek comments to defend yourself, and mock after stating you were curious.

No, nothing torrid about a work group. It was educational, informative, and fun, but it wasn't sexy. It wasn't fishy. And I hope I have satisfied your curiosity and given you ample opportunity to mock something you have created in your mind. You do have a tendency to build up fantasies of how things work and then operate as if they were reality. It's an interesting tendency.

Okay, are you arguing with me just because I posted?

Sure, leadership may know not to hire someone over a certain age or from a certain country, but visas can be denied for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with anything that would come up in an interview. Some countries don't allow anyone who has an Israeli stamp in their passport to enter, much less work, for example.

If they are so well connected, they don't need either agency. If these immortals are simply firing off an email, why use ISS? What do they gain? Also, why would those schools hire at fairs if they had such magical unicorn candidates appear out of the mist? Since they do (and yes, they do hire at fairs), why not go with the company they are using for that hiring?

A voluntary team of teacher + admin from each school (admin were invited, the schools who chose to join were part of the team, and they asked teachers) along with the director of secondary ed attended a sessions with the instructor, then did discussion groups on the topics. We did some readings, some targeted observations of classes (with the teacher's permission--some teachers didn't want us in their rooms), Q&A with students, and further discussions to look into how students approach learning (not how teachers approach it). We did document our observations and discussions, and materials were made available to all staff. We used our learning to bring it back to the staffs of our respective buildings and continue the conversations on that level. We also reported to the board and presented our work to them.

So a documented discussion as part of a focus group is fishy? We have teacher representation at district discussions around scheduling--admin, selected teachers, classified staff, etc.--where a few teachers represent the interest groups. This was no different. Again, our work was documented, shared with staffs, shared with the board, and very public. There was no benefit to being part of the group other than the learning that came out of it.

I don't know what's fishy about a work group like that.

There aren't really any. They are signed up with both.

And yes, even superstar ITs have to apply to elite schools. They can do that through any agency or without an agency. They may not need the fair, but they need to apply. So how does ISS give an edge? Do they contact schools on your behalf and do the applying for you, then fly you to the schools to interview?

This plus sometimes they realize after hiring that a visa is not possible and they and the IT have to make changes.

I agree with PsyGuy, choose situation over money. Not just location, but workload, working conditions, etc. You have to enjoy where you live, not just be content, and you have to enjoy going to work every day or it won't matter where you live. If you are worried about money, ask yourself why that is so important--do you have massive debt or are you simply looking to have some extra spending cash? What are your spending habits, and if that is important to you, then why IE? If you went into IE for the coin, choose Saudi Arabia, but my guess is that's not why you chose IE. Most of us choose it for the experiences and the people--the way TCKs are different from host country students, the way the educational philosophy differs, and of course for personal growth--seeing the world, meeting cool people, doing new things. My guess is Nigeria will give you more of that, but of course only you can answer that. Remember that many schools in SA are mostly host nation students. If that is a factor, make sure you take it into account. If you want the extra money to travel and you leave SA every weekend, then why be there?

Hopefully those questions help you clarify what YOU want out of the experience. I am not in it for the money, so I will always choose location over coin and work environment over coin.

I won't deny that as far as it concerns me.

PsyGuy would have you believe it is common. Turns out it really isn't. It happens, usually because of things like visas, but it's not a regular thing. I would say it seems more common for teachers to do a runner, but that's just a perception based on people like higgs and Psy commenting on here. Psy is promoting doing a runner when there is no reason to and making it seem like HOSs have nothing better to do than write phony rec letters so they can undermine you for moving on in a professional manner. Sorry, but turnover is part of the job, and admin expects it. They aren't going to blast you for leaving as smoothly as possible and trying to do right by them. Ignore you, maybe, but not actively seek to destroy. They have other priorities.

Most assuredly not! Glad you are entertained. I would love to hear your take since I quoted you.

Ah, the what if game. What if your evidence is based on observations, but those observations are wrong because your eyes are tricking you? You are assuming your eyes are working, after all. You say you trust data, but when you are presented with data you don't like, you don't trust it because after all, what if?

As for the IS, they know they need an X teacher IF the teacher departing acts in good faith. The IS only knows what the IT has told them, and has told them that the position. What if things change? Well, then that contract is just as meaningless as the lack of one. What if the teacher stays? Well, then the school acted in good faith to the best of its abilities, though you are determined to call it deception. What if, what if, what if?

Wait, why am I restricted to asking the observer in the room of the rose? If I want to know about the rose, why not ask the guy holding it? Why not ask the guy standing beside him?

Ah, that explains it. Well, if you ACTUALLY gamb1ed, you would know that when you lose, the fact that you have been deceived becomes obvious.

Informing people is often all the persuasion they need, but even if it isn't, persuasion does not inherently require deception.

You are the one not recognizing the assumption--that there is a lie at all. You assume there is and then call me naive for not seeing it when the reality is that you are simply assuming its existence.



Again, we took a calculated risk--one we weighed carefully using a mountain of evidence. We considered how binding a contract would be and how likely one was to be forthcoming. We decided that we would be okay walking out of the fair with a handshake promise of a pending contract. That contract has since arrived.

Funny, I gave you my numbers--I do work with more than the average teacher--and you heard that I made it up. Because I didn't qualify my initial statement as being more than average for my district, you heard that I must somehow be comparing to all DT or IE or whatever it is you wanted me to provide that I didn't. That said, I can also say that given the number of rural districts in the US and their low turnover and given that our district is a fairly representative sample with, if anything, higher admin movement, it's a reasonable extrapolation that my numbers are representative of DT as a whole. Not that it matters. My point is that I have and do work with a lot of administrators, and I have done so successfully in all but the one instance. But of course I must be fabricating it because you cannot independently verify it.

No, I cannot verify to you that only the one admin is an adversary. For all you know I am not even a teacher but some prison inmate behind a keyboard making all this up. Because I didn't provide palm readings on all admin, I must be making things up. My professional reputation, my references, my working relationships--all meaningless because I can't produce them to a stranger on a blackboard?

We were not behind closed doors plotting, we were on a transparent PD team that presented regularly on our work. It just wasn't practicable to have all teachers and admin attend--one of each from each school got to do this, and I was chosen by my admin to represent my staff. When I moved schools, a different teacher took my place. But because I didn't provide details to a stranger on a blackboard, we must have been doing something fishy, right?

No, budgeting isn't hard, but when you start doing it, you are doing administrative tasks. Finding a warm body to sign a contract isn't hard, but if you are the one responsible for it, you are doing administrative tasks. Taking bids on construction, hiring custodial staff, etc. are administrative tasks. If you are coordinating accreditation, you are performing administrative tasks. So by your reckoning either these need not happen or doing these somehow doesn't make a person an administrator. After all, being an admin doesn't mean you do admin tasks, it means you grow little red horns and a tail. Admin are evil, not just people who do the administrative tasks as part of the process. And just because you don't understand what Common Core is doesn't mean leadership doesn't. Just because at your school the staff wasn't involved in writing the mission statement doesn't mean the same isn't true at other schools. Admissions is admin in many schools, leadership creates the master schedule in most, and junior leadership is still admin! Admin approves all purchase orders and the contractors. The point isn't which tasks do or don't get done. It's that doing these tasks does NOT make one an adversary, and they ARE necessary for teachers to do their jobs.

I have no idea where you got anything about lawsuits having only to do with accreditation; lawsuits can stem from any number of things, and all of them trace back to administration.

The IE pool IS still small on a global school, and it is even smaller when you are talking about higher profile schools. You can't play dirty, especially at such a school, and not expect word to get out. It really does.

I have no idea why union membership, especially in a state in which union dues are compulsory, is relevant to anything. If anything, it underscores my point that if our mostly union member district can have such a positive relationship with its admin, both on a building level and on a district level, there is no reason to be so absolutely bitter about the role of administration.

Of course, no matter what I say I know you can just come back with all the "what ifs." I don't allow students to play the "what if" game, drawing up less and less likely scenarios forever. You seem quite fond of the game. What if the school does this horrible thing or what if that unlikely scenario is true. What if you are actually that inmate and are making it all up? We could go on. but the point is the same.


If you don't need to burn the bridge, don't. If someone burns a bridge, let it be the other guy. That way at least you did your best, both as a human and a professional, to keep it standing, and if you want it later, it might still be there. Don't get sucked into the what if paranoia and let it trick you to burning a bridge you don't have to.

Yes, claims contain underlying assumptions, but it does not follow that they are based/formed on those assumptions or that the evidence is all based on the same assumption. Otherwise we could never study or debate anything!

No, nobody knows what the IS intends to do except the IS--but we can know what they claim, and we can know that they did follow through.

And if I ask someone outside the room, they can tell me whether or not there is a rose as well as what color that rose is if it exists. All I have to do is ask the people outside the room. Not hard IF you have the right connections. We were lucky--we did.

I changed the game to five card draw because the generic term is apparently not allowed on here. Who knew that one can have a world series of this Vegas game on TV but not mention the card game on this board?

Did you know you can make a sales pitch honestly? Really! The HOS may be making a sale--but not to us. We are the commodity, remember? And why do you assume that he must by deceptive? While I also read C.S. Lewis, I do not assume that two truths must contain a lie between them.

In this case, we WERE right--we have already received the contract, which was the issue being discussed.