PsyGuy wrote:
> There is ample information to find out by talking with a candidate hired
> for the same position, since the LW wants to confirm that the IS isnt
> engaged in shenanigans hiring multiple ITs for the same position, if they
> refuse, then they have something to hide, and theres nothing weird about
> asking for the contact information for an identical department member
> moving to a new department. Hiring for multiple identical positions shows
> this IS has a lot of turnover, this is something to be concerned about.
>
> Positive reviews on ISR are mostly cheerleaders and leadership sponsored
> reviews.


It IS the same position, but they have two of them. So what would you expect to find out?
That it's not weird is your opinion, just like it's my opinion that I would find it weird if I was the recruiter. Your guess as to what the recruiter will find weird or not, is nothing more than that: a guess, unless you know him/her personally.

Your statement that there is a high turnover is also a guess. I know plenty of teacher couples (quite often both English teachers for some reason) whose departures results in two identical vacancies. And there are multiple reasons for having two vacancies, and not all of them necessarily bad. The OP can tell us more about the actual turnover, since the school's website/Search page will list the vacancies.

In my opinion, in most cases cheerleader / leadership-written reviews are fairly easy to spot for most, either by the grades given, by the topics covered in the attached statement, or the writing style thereof. Nevertheless, one or two (positive or negative) reviews mean nothing, but 4 or 5 reviews all telling you somewhat the same story can be helpful, and could be a reason to be optimistic/pessimistic. Furthermore, I don't think most positive review are less-than-honest.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I think there's a good chance you might be.

And please don't write your opinions down as facts. Just add "I think" or "In my humble opinion" in front of it, and leave some room for doubt, unless it concerns actual and verifiable facts. It will help the OP more than a false sense of certainty, and will take you forward on your journey towards self-improvement.

Yeah, I would find a current teacher via their website and then look them up on Facebook. Perhaps don't ask them using your own FB-profile, as it might reflect negatively on you. The 'cheerleaders'-list can still be used for practical questions about the school and the city it's in of course.

Not giving you the contact information of the other IT who's been hired can have other reasons (privacy for example), so since there's not much to be found out by asking them for it, and given that it would look a bit weird doing so, I personally wouldn't bother.
Then again, if it sets your mind at ease, and since it's unlikely your offer will get pulled because of it, you could also just go ahead and ask.

If I say "... if they don't have very bad reviews on ISR", that means they would have reviews on ISR, but they're not very bad. A few recent positive reviews would put my mind at ease for sure. If they don't have any reviews, yes, then that wouldn't tell you anything. If they have loads of bad (recent) reviews, proceed with caution.

Yes, that's what I would do: contact a current teacher.

As a recruiter, I would find it a bit of a weird request if one new hire would ask the contact details of the other new hire before contracts are signed. I might give it to him/her, but I would wonder why he/she'd ask. That's not to say I would pull an offer over it though.
But either way, there's not much useful information you can get from the other hire for the same job I'd say.
Yes, he can confirm what you've been told, but that says nothing. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't tell him anything that will give you a clue that they might not give you your job, if they're indeed playing you.

Perhaps @sid can give you a better insight in what they might/might not think though, as I'm not in leadership/recruiting myself. We're all just guessing of course what a specific recruiter will/won't think and do/won't do.

Don't be too paranoid – chances are good that the school is on the level, if they don't have very bad reviews on ISR.

@shadowjack

While I agree that asking would raise red flags, why wouldn't it at a school with under 600 students?

For some reason most schools where teachers are pressured are located in either Latin-America or in the Arab world, and almost always schools where the percentage of local students is high. Thankfully, not all schools in those regions have this problem, but it's worrying that more than a few do.

There's little point in fighting it too hard and straight out, if management says you should, but it's a good reason to leave the school for a better one when your contract is up.

First of all, proofread before you post, as it's a bit of a puzzle sometimes to figure out what you mean exactly. For example, 'there', 'their' and 'they're' don't all mean the same thing. I assume you're using speech-to-text, but that shouldn't be an excuse.

But to the matter at hand:

Most schools are not out to screw over their (potential) teachers. Not where it concerns the contract (my contracts have always been fair, benefitting both myself and the school), and also not during the hiring process.
Yes, there are some schools that are not to be trusted and should be burned to the ground, but that's a small minority. We read about those in some reviews, and we are wiser for doing so.

Obviously, candidates should be cautious, but not paranoid. However, you make it sound like the majority of schools are out to make their teachers' lives miserable.

My approach is to read the reviews here, and if they're dated or non-existing, inquire about the school another way: by means of contacting current staff, or ask around in my circle of IT friends. Luckily, I'm at a stage in my career where all the schools I would consider have been thoroughly reviewed.
It sounds like you have been at a few schools where the contracts were unfair to the teacher, and where recruitment involved lying to the candidate. That's tough, but it shouldn't be extrapolated to being the norm. None of my current and past colleagues have been screwed over, like you imply all schools do. That's not a scientific poll, but it tells me at least it's not widespread, or very common.

A contract means more than a verbal agreement.
All my schools had very honest contracts – my brother (who is a labour lawyer at a union), checked them all thoroughly, so perhaps you have worked at some less-than-honest schools in the past.

It would be easier for the schools to just keep you baited a bit longer by making up an excuse rather than send you an actual contract, knowing that they might void it.

Of course there are schools who don't live up to their contracts (we've had a few topics here), but those are few and far between. If a school sends you a contract you can assume it's all ok, but if you want further assurance after that, ask them to book your plane ticket already because prices are supposedly low right now.

I might first find one or a few of their current teachers, and contact them (via Facebook perhaps, or via the member forum), and inquire about the school. If the school can't be trusted, someone might warn you to stay away.

It also quite simple: they will have to send you a signed (by them) contract. You could ask when to expect it (perhaps saying that you might change address soon'ish). Once you have the contract, there's usually nothing to worry about anymore.

I've always received the contract quite soon after the offer.
Some schools might send all contracts at the same time, but most won't.

Talking to the other IT for the identical position won't help you much I'd say, since what can he/she tell you? He/she is not at the school, and they could have both offered you the same job, dropping one of you later on – you're both in the dark until contracts are signed (or until your plane lands).

If it was reposted on the school's website, you could say you were just having a look to see what other vacancies they have. Not for yourself, but just because you're getting to know the school, and seeing how many other new teachers will arrive alongside you is perfectly normal. And you could also say that you're hoping they will also have jobs for some of your friends who are looking for jobs.
Same story could be told even if advertised on Search.

If the hiring was done through Search, them offering you the job (verbally or via email), is binding, as far as Search is concerned (not legally of course). If they don't follow through on their offer, Search supposedly either drops them or penalises them somehow (probably the latter, and probably just reputation damage within SA), although I'm sure Search will come down harder on candidates breaking word than on schools doing the same.

Only way to get a straight answer is to ask the school about the vacancy, other than maybe asking if they have mailed the contract yet, or telling them you're about to book your airplane ticket there for next year already, because the prices are low now.

wrldtrvlr123 wrote:
> (but you may not want to mention that you saw
> "your" job reposted).

Why not?
Not saying I disagree, but for now I can't think of a reason not to mention it.

It would be lying if they straight-up ask you if you're happily married, and they won't.
If you're officially still married, you're not lying if you present yourselves as a married couple.
Candidates have no obligation to volunteer information about marital problems, and as long as you're sure it will not interfere with your jobs, I don't think you're really conning the school, as you will be doing what you are hired to do. Schools don't pay you to stay together, they pay you to teach to the best of your abilities.

My only concern would be the children. If it might affect them negatively in any way, don't do it. This goes for any option.
If they're small enough, pretending to be married for the school won't affect them, since there's not much pretending involved: plenty of married couples don't do the 'holding hands'-thing in public. Plenty of married couples don't even socialise on school grounds – they see enough of each other at home. Never make them lie for you though, or lie to them.

Yeah, going to a hub like Bangkok or Singapore and get jobs at separate schools might be an option, although there's always the uncertainty if the other will find a job after one of you has accepted an offer. If one of you lowers their standards a bit it shouldn't be too difficult though. Deciding which one might prove difficult if you're not on good terms though.

Good luck!

I'd rather base my list of top tier schools on the wisdom of the crowd, than on one person's opinion.
And when you utilise the collective experiences and opinions of the members of this forum, the list you get will be quite close to the list I presented (in my haste I must have forgotten a few), with 90% of those schools having IB-DP as the main diploma route for 90+% of their students.
I know, the 'M' in 'Masses' is sometimes silent, but in this case, I think most of the schools that multiple people have mentioned as being top tier are deserving of a spot on that list. And even if you lose a few schools, you will lose non-IB schools along with IB schools, plus the '61 out of 66'-score is high enough to withstand some changes before it will support your opinion.

So again: yes, if you are going to teach diploma classes, IBDP experience on your CV will help you get into these top tier schools, as most of them teach IBDP.

If you want to discuss further, come to the member forum, where I've posted the list, and you can name names, and post your own list. Always curious to hear about new schools that are top tier.

Two colleagues of mine have worked there, and left after the first year of their two-year contract. Not sure if the job or the city was the reason for them leaving though.

This website shares some experiences about expat life in a lot of the worlds capitals, and although their contributors are mostly embassy employees, it gives you a sense of how it would be to live there:
https://www.talesmag.com/real-post-reports/all

Shall we discuss the list on the paid forum, where we can actually name schools?
I've already made a topic there, and it has some interesting comments.

Any associates that you'd recommend (or advise against)?
(other than the fair organizers)

Quite liked Harry Deelman, but there might be others...