Ad hominem attacks and calling it sour grapes isn't an argument. We are going to our dream school, and we got the job with more ease than we should have on paper, so we have no reason to be anything but happy. I don't know why it would be sour grapes that I am not something that does not exist! I mean, I guess I am also disappointed that I didn't get a Hogwarts letter, but really, the feeling is no different.

The trenches are an idiom, you know. The unicorns, if they existed, would actually teach in classrooms and have to show up to staff meetings and interact with the mere mortals. They would do so at those top schools, right? That's where unicorns are most likely to be spotted. If they exist, they would work in those places, meaning my flesh and blood friends would have met one. After all, my unbelief doesn't mean they aren't believers, and they haven't met any such people.

We had schools contacting us cold when our agency profile was active, too. That doesn't make us unicorns. Didn't you say such creatures don't use agencies because they are above them? And that top schools get 1000 applications for a job? They don't take the time to troll the candidate profiles looking for the names on an imaginary list. They want people who WANT their school, and they have 1000 flesh and blood candidates from whom to choose.

And until this thread you have pretty much always used the term fit, not vibe. But if you want to change your posts from the past, we can certainly use vibe if you like it better.

Then you cannot use percentages to determine tier. One or the other determines tier. Either Tier 1 is the top 5% or it's great (or good or whatever word you choose). It does not follow that only 5% are great*. Use whichever you want. I don't care. Logically you cannot use both.

wrldtrvlr123 wrote:

> Unless you are one of those mythical unicorn/rockstars and they are afraid of letting
> you slip away.


*snort* Good one.

Glad to help. Aim high--you never know what you might get! Stay realistic, cast wide, but don't be intimidated by "elite" schools. Those teachers are still just humans, the students are still just kids, and the parents are still just people who want what's best for their kids. Sometimes the "tier" thing gets in the way of that. When a school is prioritizing its tier, it isn't prioritizing kids, and that means it might not be great.

My friend can get the handshake meet and greet through contacts. Determining fit vs. getting a vibe is semantics, and you know it.

So even unicorns need to make themselves available--i.e. contact the school and express interest or at least availability. They aren't cold-contacted. So no, there isn't a list of unicorns floating among directors.

Ah, yes. Since my friends at unicorn hangouts like the schools I listed haven't met unicorns, my network must not be unicorn enough. Of course, you know dozens of unicorns because, well, of course you do.

I don't claim to be a unicorn because there is no such thing (so no insult there despite the intent). But of course the forum has a unicorn (because otherwise you would not be able to contradict my claim), but naturally you won't say who it is.

So I have to believe in unicorns to see one? Even if I work in a unicorn hangout? If they exist, they are still in the trenches teaching with the non-mythical ITs, so they would be seen by those who work in the same trench.

Of course, if you are delusional enough you can see anything you believe in. Even unicorns.

So how can you say that, when the OP says they just want a great school, they won't get it because they won't get elite? If they assign great to anything not completely awful, then they can very well get great. I assign great to schools that are student-centered, fair to all parties, ethical, don't have unreasonable requirements, nice city, good package, good facilities and resources, and actually looking to create a community in which students can grow into global citizens. There are a lot of schools that do that without being "elite" and at which teachers would give their right arms to work.

I describe schools by their qualities rather than use a word for each tier. If I were to say elite=great, tier 1=good, tier 2=fair, and tier 3=bad, I would not be able to use the percentage curve you like so much. I would have to allow for more than one elite school in a location or region.

Do you work at a great school? I mean, if the only thing great is elite . . . .

@global nomad
Not much of a match when the opponent insists on sticking to a position which is flatly wrong.

@PsyGuy
Well, since we are talking about being successful (i.e. finding a job) with an agency, yes, I would say that finding a job is my definition. Not sure what definition you are using . . . .

Higher concentration? Of what exactly? If the databases are essentially the same and they show mostly the same schools, there is little to choose between the two agencies. However, what is the good of a database other than to help a teacher find vacancies to which they apply directly? If there is little to choose between the databases in that regard, neither company has an edge. What matters is the behavior of recruiters, not the size of the database.

You have offered ZERO evidence that recruiters actively use ISS. I have at least offered an example that they don't. How do they use ISS to find teachers?

Yes, recruiters hire at fairs--it is a fact that ISs actively hire through fairs. That is generally why they go. Your claim that they don't is just silly and shows how desperately you insist on clinging to a belief and arguing with me just because you cannot admit you are wrong. Seriously, listen to yourself. It's "not a fact that ISs actively hire through fairs"? That's nonsense and you know it. Of course they hire at fairs!

Sure, fairs are not the only places they hire, but if they hire half of their staff through fairs (where did you get that number?), that's still a lot of European jobs obtained through fairs--and since they are mostly going to the SA fairs, I'd say candidates wanting European jobs should go to those fairs.

Since we got hired at a fair for our school, which attended NONE of the ISS fairs and three SA fairs, I can say with certainty that we would not have been successful with ISS (unless they had flown us to the school to meet with the recruiter). We might have been successful on our own, but that doesn't give ISS the edge, either.

There is a consistent pattern of European schools no longer attending ISS fairs but moving to SA. We cannot ascertain the cause of this pattern without a recruiter survey, but the sample of one I have indicates that recruiters prefer SA. Yes, he is one data point (though his answer indicated that his colleagues felt the same way), but he is one data point more than your zero.

Sure, our experiences differ, but you still offer no real evidence that ISS is better. You still have evaded the question of what ISS does for those special snowflakes that helps them land jobs (in Europe or elsewhere). You still haven't explained how the masses can get jobs if there are no European schools at the fairs. Does ISS actually put in a good word for their snowflakes--call up recruiters and say "you should Skype Mr. Smith, he's great"? Do they set up the interview times? Fly you places for F2F? No? I will ask again--what does ISS do for their special candidates that SA doesn't? And what do they do for the masses that SA does not?

Really, only 5% of hiring is done at fairs? Earlier you said it was half? Where do you get your numbers? I get the 40% number (from the agencies), but to say that accounts for only 5% of all recruiting is nonsense. That is a made-up figure. However, you say that this is because of the schools that don't use agencies. Well, that's great, but the question was which agency is better. So if we take out the 95% (really?) that don't use the two agencies, we are left with the schools which do use them. They are the ones hiring at the fairs (again, advantage SA). Then you say "of those ISS has a better success rate" with no evidence or even context. So a higher percentage of those applying for the two European jobs available at the ISS fair got hired than the percentage of people applying for the 150 jobs at SA? Doubtful.

I am not the one making up numbers and making unfounded claims here.

Fair enough, but most schools do not have this clause.

For the accent thing, you are right--it should be a neutral person making the call. My point was mostly that we can't do that on the internet. But it should be a native speaker who can actually speak in person with the OP.

As to elite, seriously, working at NIST or even Patanya is not great? Working at Munich International isn't great but Frankfurt is? Of course it is "great" working at those schools. They are great but not elite because the other is even better or simply more established, not because they aren't great. Again, if only a percentage can be top and even a subset can be elite, there can literally be dozens of great schools--only one will be the elite, not because the others aren't great, but because there can be only one. Unless you are counting 1st tier as something other than a percentage.

As you said, though, great is relative, and for the OP, they will find something that they consider "great," even if it is NIST instead of Patanya or even if it is ForProfitHellholeThatCatersOnlyToWhatTheOPWants IS.

Haha, as always, there is an asterisk. My friend must only be a Master Class because, well, unicorns don't exist.

Yes, often the meet and greet is just the final F2F to determine fit. However, that is still an "interview," and it happens to all classes of teachers.

You say there is a formula or recipe. Do you need the secret unicorn handshake to get the formula? After all, you must know it since you know about it. What's the secret ingredient? Or is it like the first rule of fight club?

I didn't expect to be cold contacted by an upper tier IS. However, I know one of those people who has the full package--taught the children of royalty, top international military brass (guess where he did that?), elite schools on two continents, leadership positions, etc. He can apply anywhere and probably get the job through his contacts (he is an excellent networker and has stayed in touch with some BIG names internationally). Schools don't cold contact him, either. My network does extend pretty far and we got hired at the Tier 1 school that was our top choice. I have friends who have worked or do work at elite and Tier 1 schools (Shanghai American, ASIJ, Singapore American, Amsterdam, Brussels, Copenhagen, Hanoi, Bogota, London, Budapest) as well as numerous other schools, and none of them have ever heard of such a thing. So yes, my network does cover quite a range. No unicorns around.

Of the two of us, I am generally the rainbows and pixie dust one. You are the cynic. Why is it that you are so upbeat on this one? Unicorns don't exist.

It's always technically "breaking contract," but sometimes the school will "release you from your contract" due to things like visa issues they don't want to bother fighting (it's easier just to hire a new person), or new leadership wanting to bring their own people on board. When they release you, it might even be without blackballing, paying for your flight home, and even a letter of rec. It really depends on how and why you are wanting to leave and how nice the admin feels toward you.

Psy, just to clarify:

1) We agree--only the OP and people who know her personally can determine how native she sounds. I am not ruling it out given my father's experiences. All I said was to make that determination themselves.

2) I didn't mean target JUST those types of schools, but those are often better stepping stones than schools in China or the ME that have mostly local populations, so it might be a deciding factor. It might also be easier to get a foot in the door, though those schools are often small, so only one partner would likely get a job (unlikely to have multiple openings). Absolutely I agree to target any school you would consider. OP, if you do get your foot in the door that way, the trailing spouse should expand the resume through extracurriculars that are marketable (ModelUN, coaching popular sports like soccer or basketball), pursuing an advanced degree, or anything else the school allows that would fill some of those gaps in your marketability. For the second year of the contract, that partner should try to branch out into secondary, for example.

I am going to push back on the "elite" comment. There are a ton of great schools that aren't elite or even Tier 1 by your standard simply because you base it off of percentages. If there is a better school that is the Tier 1 or elite school, that doesn't mean the tier 2 isn't great--maybe just not as well established. Look at Bangkok. There is ISB, the elite school. There is maybe one other school that is Tier 1 (Patanya), and the next would, by virtue of numbers, be tier 2. Does that mean NIST isn't a great school? Of course it is! So saying that the only great schools are the elite flies in the face of the premise of percentages in the tier system.

That's of course leaving out the whole "great is relative" argument, which one could also make. There are TONS of teachers very happy with their situations and who would call their current schools "great" even if they aren't top tier.

OP, you will find something. Just be smart, persistent, and patient. Good luck!

I had a friend who had all the checkboxes you describe, PsyGuy. 10 years, at least half IE, advanced degree, no dependents, special populations, leadership experience, and her father is a HOS in the region, so she knows tons of HOS, including the one she was targeting. If her references weren't stellar, they were lying. Any school in the world would be lucky to have her, and indeed she was hired by the elite school she wanted. At the fair. After going through the cattle call. She still had to pursue the school.

Nobody is so good they are spared an interview. Yes, schools get 1000 applications for a job--and they still might hire someone they meet at an interview signup. There is no formula. Your scoring guide is great for getting a general idea of what an IS wants and how you stack up, but there are so many factors involved that you have no idea what does and does not get through a CV gauntlet. We have all seen schools outright reject a candidate that another, comparable, or even better school couldn't hire fast enough.

I have never seen a top school contact someone cold and ask them to leave their current job next year for a vacancy at the new school. In fact, I have never seen a top school contact anyone who has not expressed interest in their school first. The candidate always has to reach out first unless we are talking notes in boxes at the fair or bottom of the barrel schools. After that it's still a matter of interviews, whether at the fair or elsewhere. Some schools still like to see what they get at fairs. Some schools prefer hiring the night before. Some schools do everything online. There is no formula, even for the top schools and teachers.

There is no such thing as a unicorn.

I am going to agree and disagree with Psy on just a few things here.

1) Your fluency. I know my father, who learned English in school, has such fluency and a grasp of idioms AND non-verbal communication cues that people are shocked to learn that he is not American. You will have to be the judge of that end of things--while Psy is right that it can be a barrier, you may very well pass as native speakers. Keep it in mind, and use your best judgment.

2) Ichiro--we didn't use it for all vacancies--just schools that had TWO vacancies, one for each of us (so about 1/3 of the schools to which we applied). When only one of us was applying for a vacancy, we used that partner's regular CV. Obviously you use your discretion on when to use each. You sound like you are intelligent enough to make that call!

3) While you are not experienced in secondary, don't discount it. If a school has one opening in primary and one that you could fill in secondary, they may hire you for the secondary because you are a convenient two-fer-one. However, Psy is right that expanding that area of your resume may help. If you CAN spend next year in your current school teaching secondary, it might be worthwhile.

4) I also agree with the idea of increasing specialization, marketing for special populations, etc. to increase your range and thus your desirability. Good advice there.

5) Good advice on the non-Western schools. As a side-note, you can additionally target those schools which are the "western" (think US State Department) schools but have high concentrations of locals due to the fact that the country simply has few expats. Ulaanbaatar comes to mind, and teachers apparently love working there.

6) Get your invite to the fair you want, but maybe hold off on booking flights and hotel for awhile so you can test the waters? Again, you will have to make the best call on that based on your current location, price of tickets, and your perceived marketability.

Not at all!

I didn't define the issue. The definition is clear: Which agency is better for those seeking jobs in Europe to actually find them? In other words, it isn't fairs, but actual hiring done.

You stated that if you are a special snowflake, ISS gives you more service, but you never said what that service was. You never gave a reason ISS is better for the masses. You said the ISS database was larger for Europe, but it isn't (they are either equal or slightly smaller). You said it repped better schools (not relevant to the question of geography regardless), but you could not support this claim and did not give examples. You also never demonstrated that ISS used its database for hiring. So your saying that ISS gives "better service" (which you have not defined) to special snowflakes is not sufficient to support your claim that ISS is better, either for them or for the masses.

I, however, have demonstrated that recruiters actively use SA for recruiting. I have offered as evidence the fact that the schools actively hire through fairs. I have offered that a recruiter from a top school has told me that they actively use SA, but not ISS. Both of those are evidence, not tautology. I'll add that every teacher I knew when we taught in Europe was hired either through SA or CIS if they used an agency at all.

For the masses, fairs are frequently where they are hired. Advantage: SA
For the unicorns, they aren't hired through an agency. Advantage: Neither

Again, where is the ISS advantage other than this undefined "better service"? Where is the advantage for the masses other than the unsupported claim that the ISS database is bigger and better (even though it isn't and, if there is no evidence schools are using it, its size is meaningless)?