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by Thames Pirate
Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:03 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Resignation timeline
Replies: 40
Views: 45271

Re: Resignation timeline

How is a teacher assuming admin is the adversary good for kids? No, they might not always act in the best interest of the teacher, but then again, that isn't their job. By the same token it isn't your job to act in their best interest, either. However, if you have a shared goal of what's best for kids, you might find working TOGETHER with admin advantageous. If not, well, certainly it is your job to look out for your own interests. However, working WITH admin whenever possible is advantageous in the long run, not just to avoid getting caught as in the scenario I posted, but to have a potential ally in the future. Burning a bridge is something people should try to avoid whenever possible. Sometimes the bridge gets burned anyway, but all we are saying is try to avoid it. No, heads don't always talk, but they talk often enough that if you can avoid a bad situation, you should.

Again, PsyGuy, what happened that has you so jaded?
by Thames Pirate
Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:59 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
Replies: 42
Views: 40568

Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?

In a not-for-profit school with a board that is made up of multiple stakeholder groups, you will not have a HOS doing what ownership says because there is no "ownership." Yes, the IS has the power, but a board isn't going to say "don't send a contract to X" when they haven't met X and X was hired at a job fair. But of course, researching the school structure (including the board) is part of research, and it is an often overlooked part of research. When the board is involved in which teacher at a fair to hire, it is the worst kind of nepotism, and that stuff stinks enough for people to know.

No, the associate did not assume we heard the previous news because she never saw me. She was not so tired she was losing her mind and gave very lucid instructions in all other areas. She knew the HOS by reputation at the very least.

I would recommend being cautious, sure, but I wouldn't say it's naiveté. I would say it was a very calculated risk. There IS a difference.

Is it so hard for you to believe there are reputable HOSs out there or is it just hard to believe someone on this board might have ended up at a reputable school with a reputable admin? What happened to you that you are so jaded?
by Thames Pirate
Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:49 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Attending Fair After Accepting Position
Replies: 36
Views: 38923

Re: Attending Fair After Accepting Position

Funny you should say that given the other thread. Nothing in this thread included data, mentions of insanity, or anything like it. Meanwhile in this one you suddenly consider getting a position that suits you at UNI great, while elsewhere on this board you have called the UNI fair a "dump fair." So you don't actually think it's great unless the point of your post was to put words in my mouth and imply an elitism in me that I never expressed. Your response to me here is not about my saying London or Bangkok is probably more fun to be hired early. It's about attacking and attempting to undermine me based on the other thread. In that other one I posted a number of pieces of evidence, all of which you ignored. You stuck to your guns because it was your preference, called me naive for believing data and evidence, and now you say I am the one who has such a proclivity. Oh, the irony.
by Thames Pirate
Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:10 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Attending Fair After Accepting Position
Replies: 36
Views: 38923

Re: Attending Fair After Accepting Position

MartElla,

This was PsyGuy trying to attack me personally. I have pointed out his elitist attitude on another thread, so he is trying to turn tables on me.

The type of person who wants to teach abroad is probably also the person who would jump at the chance to spend those already paid for days in London or Bangkok. Depending on the person, they could also enjoy Northern Iowa in February. LON and BKK are better, though.
by Thames Pirate
Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:31 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
Replies: 42
Views: 40568

Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?

Leadership that have a reputation established over time have it for a reason. If they care about the reputation of the school (again, with a track record over time) and the school has a good reputation, you can rest a bit easier as well. Nothing is guaranteed, sure, but at some point there has to be trust on both sides--trust that the candidate quits looking and trust that the school will honor its commitment and quit interviewing. Yes, a contract is stronger, but even those are limited in usefulness.

In our situation we heard a girl at the fair office talk with an associate about having accepted an offer. The associate was very clear that she had to have paperwork from the school and not to quit the process until she had a contract in hand. When we came back just over an hour later, the same lady asked us from whom we had accepted an offer. She smiled, spoke fondly of the director, and said nothing about having a contract in hand. Clearly she knew which directors were and were not reputable, and clearly she knew that while she couldn't throw a school under the bus (as you said, the schools are the clients), she gave us different advice from the other girl. That is a reputation cultivated over time by that HOS. Our prior research, our people skills in assessing him (and the principal, who was also at the interview), and the wording of the offer allowed us to feel comfortable accepting a verbal offer only. The behavior of the school since then has been nothing but exactly as we expected it--regular contact regarding the references, and the contract now in hand--which is word for word what he had told us to expect and in a timeframe that is faster than he had anticipated.

However, if we had no prior knowledge of the school, felt at all unsure of either the director or of our people-reading skills, or if the associate had said to have paperwork in hand, we would have insisted on paperwork.

I agree that it is wise to advise caution, but there are exceptions to every rule. The most reputable schools are that way for a reason.
by Thames Pirate
Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:01 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Attending Fair After Accepting Position
Replies: 36
Views: 38923

Re: Attending Fair After Accepting Position

It's only better because London and Bangkok are more interesting cities and that a few days there to hang out are generally more exciting. That's all I meant. If the candidate wants to watch TV in a hotel room it doesn't matter.
by Thames Pirate
Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:22 pm
Forum: Forum 2. Ask Recruiting Questions, Share Information. What's on Your Mind?
Topic: ISS versus Search
Replies: 51
Views: 86085

Re: Reply

> It well might. He does have his strong points but sadly this is not one of them.

Apparently! Oh, well. I think I have made the point clearly. For Europe, SA is clearly the better choice of the two. CIS is also good. I can't speak to elsewhere in the world as we have always been focused on Europe (willing to go elsewhere and looking at schools all over, but primarily Europe). Therefore we know the most about those schools.

I am still curious, though, about his handful of elites and every other school being lower tier even though he and everyone else would acknowledge there is a tier 1, tier 2, and that there is a variety in tier 3.
by Thames Pirate
Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:40 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Resignation timeline
Replies: 40
Views: 45271

Re: Resignation timeline

No, there is no black list, but recruiters/HOSs move around just as teachers do, and they DO talk to each other. I knew of an IT who took paternity leave in one country in WE, then accepted a position in China, leaving his wife and new baby behind in Europe. He was collecting a double paycheck. It was brilliant until the two recruiters met at one of the early job fairs and figured the whole thing out. He lost the WE job pretty quickly!

So do your best not to burn bridges (as PG says, how you spin it matters) and do your best to do right by the schools while still looking out for yourself.
by Thames Pirate
Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:36 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Attending Fair After Accepting Position
Replies: 36
Views: 38923

Re: Attending Fair After Accepting Position

True, the advantage of being pre-hired is much more significant in London or Bangkok than in Iowa!
by Thames Pirate
Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:33 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
Replies: 42
Views: 40568

Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?

We, too, have our contract. It took just over a week and that was only due to some delays in hearing back from our references. Then again, I was never worried because this is a school with a good reputation and a HOS who values his word, his school's reputation, and the integrity of the process--and we knew that before we interviewed with him.

All agencies rep bad ISs.

I agree that one should be careful and that there are bad apples all around. I agree that teachers are commodities. I would also point out that even with a contract in hand ITs have little recourse, so a letter of intent, a contract, and a promise are not that different all things considered. Know what you are getting into.
by Thames Pirate
Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:02 pm
Forum: Forum 2. Ask Recruiting Questions, Share Information. What's on Your Mind?
Topic: ISS versus Search
Replies: 51
Views: 86085

Re: Reply

Again, PG, this makes no sense and does not match reality. Schools DO skip the ISS portion of the super fairs. I am not saying schools necessarily need to actively search for candidates in databases, but they are getting quality applicants through SA. If they want to meet them F2F, they do it at the SA fairs. They may very well get good applicants from ISS, but they aren't meeting them at ISS fairs. So if I am doing the legwork of contacting the schools and they hire from either database, ISS holds no advantage over SA. However, if that school wants to meet me, I as a candidate would need to either travel to the school (neither company has an edge) or go to a fair the school is attending (giving SA the edge). So as a candidate contacting schools, yes, SA gives me the edge.

Meanwhile you claim schools don't skip the super fairs. Well, why did only two European schools attend the ISS BKK fair when far more attended SA BKK? They DO skip ISS BKK, then attend SA BKK, CIS LON, and SA LON. Why would they do that if they prefer or heavily hire through ISS? The answer is they don't. They either hire through other agencies or no agency at all. So when making a decision of which agency of the two to use, I want the ones schools are using.

You also contradict yourself. If schools aren't hiring through the database ("don't have to go hunting through the database") and they aren't hiring through fairs ("your definition of access is fairs, the data base doesnt go away because you define access as fairs"), why on earth would I sign up with ISS?

No, fairs are not the sole definition of access, but they still represent a vital F2F access point. If I am doing the school-by-school application, ISS offers no advantage over SA (again, if anything their smaller database is a disadvantage). So as a candidate, I want maximum access. SA offers the better database (maximizing my access) and fair attendance (again, maximizing my access). Schools, meanwhile, are sifting through the candidates that come to them, either through direct application (meaning either company or none at all is fine) or through F2F contact (fairs--meaning SA is the better option).

You keep saying ISS is the more elite and selective database, but you offer no evidence of this. ISS requires only a teaching license and a Bachelors to be listed. That is not exactly a highly selective process and is the same minimum as with SA. As for schools, again, what is the screening process? There is a lot of junk represented by ISS, too. In fact, you said so yourself. So the only evidence you have offered in support of your claim that ISS is more selective is that you think they are more elite. I sincerely hope you require your students to support their points with a bit more evidence and - than that.

You claim that ISS treats its "special snowflakes" better--well, great. Does that mean ISS personally contacts those top schools and vouches for you based solely on the paperwork you submit to them? Will they arrange a F2F meeting for you? If not, why use them? What help do they offer their snowflakes that they don't offer the peons? And if you are one of their snowflakes, do you really need the agency's help getting that job? So tell me again why that means ISS is the better agency for finding a job in Europe? After all, that was the point of discussion. How precisely is ISS more specialized, either for schools or for candidates?

Yes, it is foolish to take the position of a recruiter if all evidence points in a different direction. It is not foolish if the evidence supports the recruiter's statement. When a recruiter tells me (again, when just chatting at the hotel in our shared language and his school is not on my list) that his school will no longer be recruiting through ISS--and then they stop attending ISS events they used to attend--his actions match his statements and the other evidence I have.

You say I assume lesser known ISs are good--well, maybe, maybe not. Sometimes they are just new. Sometimes reputations are based on the past and the school has changed (which can happen in either direction--a school can rest on its laurels or a school can get new leadership to undo the mess that it was). Meanwhile you forget that there are TONS of teachers happy at schools you personally consider lesser quality because they are able to work in professionally challenging and dynamic classrooms, have access to PD, and most importantly, do good work with kids. If reputation of a school eclipses the actual day-to-day grind with kids in your eyes, well, you may need to reconsider your profession.

Furthermore, I am still baffled by your concept of tiered schools. We all know there are a few "elites," tier 1 schools (top notch), tier 2 schools (still really good), and tier three (in which there are the "floaters" who are close to tier 2 and the "bottom of the barrel" types). You continually say "top schools" and "bottom schools" and refer only to a few elites. Is there actually a tier 1 or 2 in your book? Since we are talking about European schools in particular and you are apparently in Europe, perhaps you can educate us a bit. Which schools are hiring through ISS? Please feel free to include the sources of your information. I am particularly interested in schools in the countries that didn't attend fairs--Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or the UK, for example.

You may not be interested in convincing me, but at least I offered multiple sources for my claim. I have offered a recruiter, a listing of schools attending fairs, and the minimum requirements of the two companies in question for candidates. Yes, the minimum requirements are evidence that both companies rep the good and the bad. I can also offer that I have met people at fairs that make me wonder how they ever got teaching licenses (both ISS and SA). As neither of us can go beyond that in terms of assessing candidates, we must accept that based on the minimums, there are bound to be good and bad teachers at both agencies. I could make equal lists of good and bad schools for each agency (which would heavily overlap, BTW). It is not just my perception.

So how is ISS better for getting a job in the EU (for top and/or bottom)? Tell me specifically how a teacher signed up with them has an edge in getting a job in the EU--the step-by-step process.

As to what you were saying to Walter, you again contradict yourself. You say recruiters prefer the more selective candidate pool, then you say they prefer the bigger fairs. So which is it? Tell us the process recruiters use so that we can all make the best decisions based on our own resumes and which schools we want (again, specific to EU for this thread). Explain why a good EU school would attend two or three fairs but not ISS BKK--yet still look first at an ISS candidate.

You say superstar ITs don't need to chase anyone, but the reality is that even the best teachers still have to apply, interview, and make decisions. No, the elite schools don't need to hunt for quality applicants, but they do still need to snap up the best teachers before another school does. You make it sound like the best teachers and schools magically find each other with no effort on anyone's part, but again, this isn't reality. Even the best schools use the fairs (even if they do most of their heavy lifting before the signup session), and even the best teachers use the fairs (depending on what they want and when and where jobs are available--and even if they do all their interviews before the signups).

Walter does not sound like an admin, but like someone with a personal issue with you. You do not sound like an admin, but like a teacher with an elitism complex.


> I wasnt accepted into ISS when I first started out in IE.

Maybe this contributes to your mistaken belief that they are somehow more selective? Funny, I was accepted when I first started out in IE. I switched to SA because they were the better option, and I have never regretted that.

PsyGuy, would it kill you to admit you are wrong? Or at least provide some support for your argument?
by Thames Pirate
Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:29 pm
Forum: Forum 2. Ask Recruiting Questions, Share Information. What's on Your Mind?
Topic: ISS versus Search
Replies: 51
Views: 86085

Re: ISS versus Search

No need to make it a personal attack.

The reality is that the barrier for entry for candidates is pretty comparable (Bachelors, teaching cert OR 2 years--really, how is that selective?). So PsyGuy's argument about the best candidates is based only on his perception? memory? while the reality is that both companies rep the good and bad candidates and schools. You can be wildly successful with either and supremely disappointed with either.

So my take is go with the one that has the most options you like. We were interested in Europe, so ISS just wasn't a viable option for us.
by Thames Pirate
Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:19 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Resignation timeline
Replies: 40
Views: 45271

Re: Resignation timeline

It completely depends on the school. The school that hired us in London told us they had a few teachers at the fair and that they were tentatively interviewing for those positions, but that the positions were clearly tentative. Their teachers were checking in with them at the fair.

In some countries labor laws are firmly on the side of the teacher--they might have until spring to notify the school. Anything earlier is a courtesy. So the teacher can (and they often do this even if the law isn't on their side) apply and then tell the school once they are hired somewhere. It's trickier when you are at a small school and attending a job fair, especially if your school is also there. The schools know when the job fairs are, so it could be problematic.

It really is a case-by-case thing. If you are in "get me the heck outta Dodge" mode, you can apply and just leave your school in the lurch (long term ramifications? Word gets around). Pulling a runner is not uncommon, especially at lower tier schools. It can, however, cost you with those administrators, and the IS world is small and mobile. It would really stink to learn the administrator you ran out on is now in charge of your dream school. However, the late notification might not be bad if you do it early enough. A friend didn't tell her school she was looking, but she had feelers out. She got a job that was a phenomenal opportunity for her and that she didn't expect to get in late May. She took it, then politely went to the principal and informed her that she had been offered this awesome job. They parted on good terms and with a good letter of rec, the school filled the job over the summer, and the friend is in her dream job in her dream city (she said she's never leaving).

If you are on good terms with your admin, you can make it an ongoing conversation in which you go to the fair together--your admin can back you up (and even put in a good word) while you keep him/her abreast of how your search is going--keeping things positive on both sides, though of course you have the advantage of keeping the old job (though be careful! You might get bitten by sneaky admin who says he's only interviewing tentatively but then jumps on someone and leaves you without a job) until you have the certainty of the new. This option can work well with a straight-shooting administrator who has a good rapport with the teacher. Incidentally, cultivating that rapport is recommended (different from brown-nosing, which may or may not help and which most administrators see through anyway). The more reputable schools will have those administrators who will want to work to a mutually beneficial situation and will appreciate your honesty. It could turn ugly on either side, so it requires a bit of finesse--but it has the potential for the best outcome.

Or you can do the least safe option short term, commit to leaving, letting the school advertise your position, and then risk being left unemployed. The latter option gives power to admin, but they do prefer firm answers early in the game, so of course long term ramifications are the smallest in terms of keeping your own reputation intact. If you're good with the risk and good at the search, you'll find something!

It really depends on the admin, your relationship with them and the school, your likelihood of needing them later, etc.

Hope that helps!
by Thames Pirate
Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:22 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Attending Fair After Accepting Position
Replies: 36
Views: 38923

Re: Attending Fair After Accepting Position

Sometimes you can get a refund. You could also travel, pop in and out of the fair as it suits you, and do other things. We got a no-show refund on our non-refundable hotel room. So apparently you can't cancel, but you can fail to show up and get some money back.

You could take the already planned sub days at home, using them to get caught up on grading, do research for your upcoming move, or just do something local that you somehow have never done.
by Thames Pirate
Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:35 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?
Replies: 42
Views: 40568

Re: How soon to receive contract after accepting at a fair?

Sure you do. At least if it is a reputable school and the contact is coming from their HR department, the vacancy is removed from the wall before fair signups, and the listing removed from online databases. Not having a physical contract in hand is pretty normal in some recruiting circles/schools. But you are right to advise caution; I would be hesitant in most instances.