The benefits of posting when not jet lagged--Psyguy's response is better phrased!

Not that hard.

Thanks for your interest in my profile, but I am not looking for work in X region/country/job/school type/whatever or just thanks, but after reviewing your school profile, I don't believe it would be a good fit for me.

Most of the schools contacting you cold are contacting TONS of people cold. It's probably a for-profit or regional tier 3 school in a place like China or the ME, right? They probably contacted every person with your certification without dependents they could find in the hopes of someone being willing to take the job. Most of them probably don't bother to write back if they are not interested, but of course it is not only polite, but could potentially help you out further down the road, and a quick email is easy. They won't be offended if you just say you aren't interested.

Not much of a report for me.

We had sent out expressions of interest to a number of schools across Western Europe. One of those (our top choice) contacted us last Monday requesting an interview before the fair on Thursday (check in was all day Thursday, sign ups early Friday). Another school (this one in Switzerland) also asked to meet us on Thursday. We did some quick research and decided to meet with them as well a few hours later. We declined an invitation from a for-profit school (also in WE) as we are not interested in that model. A school in Central America was on our reserve list and had contacted us before the fair, so we kept them in mind.

We arrived around 10:30 (check in started at 10:00 and our top choice interview was at 12:00). We used the time to put notes and CVs or Ichiros in a few boxes. We also had a note in our box from the only Asian school we were seriously considering inviting us to sign up with them the next morning. We did not have time to respond.

Our interview went well, and they asked what our plan was for the day. We told them about the other interview, and they asked us to cancel it and offered us a job before we could leave the room. We accepted, canceled everything else, and were out of there by 1:30. We have spent the last two days enjoying London, though we did go to our new school's presentation and chat with the few people we met in the short time we were there.

So not much to report from the fair other than that we are going to a top school in an AWESOME city!

It's not about giving myself points; it's about understanding your rationale for how points are given or not so that we can realistically see how we compare and what ISs want.

So it sounds like hubby and I ARE cross certified as I can and have taught in all three of my licensure areas (sure, most of my experience and my preferred subject is English, but if I am applying for an English job and we are just looking at the potential for me to be scheduled for the odd class elsewhere, that's what you mean, right?). He is certified in English and Social Studies, so if he is applying to the Econ job and I am applying to the English job, we can both still be cross scheduled. That's what I was assuming you meant--that if the school needs a FL cover for period 1, hubby could cover one section of English that I might have otherwise had or if the school needs two sections of middle school social studies to be scheduled at the same time. By that metric we are in fact cross certified and schedulable. Again, I am assuming that we are applying for separate jobs, not competing with each other for the same one. If there is a single vacancy we don't typically both apply--the one of us more qualified for that particular job does. Therefore the point would still apply because I would be applying for an English job but also able to cover the odd section of social studies or FL while he would be applying for social studies jobs but still be able to cover the odd section of English.
Of course, we don't know how the rest of their staff is certified, which may impact our own "score" or desirability. If the FL teacher could also teach art, they could move that person over and have me cover the FL, for example, but if they need me to teach art and there is nobody else, my English/FL/SocSt is not so useful. However, I have no way of knowing that, and I am basing my scoring on the fact that I am primarily an English teacher applying for English jobs but could also cover social studies or FL--as anyone using the scoring system who doesn't know the staff would have to do. Obviously admin might see any or all of the system differently, but I imagine you wrote it as more of a guide. By that measure we are both cross certified. Thus my reasoning in giving the point.

I am not talking about NTSB certification, either. I was saying that the government would not recognize my teaching license. This means that the school, in order to maintain its national accreditation, would have to put another teacher in the room with me. The school did offer to try to find a way to make it work because they really wanted to keep me, but after speaking with the director and local authorities extensively, we came to the mutual decision that it was best for me to return to my home state and get the matter cleared up. I have done so. Since the initial contract was only a one year maternity cover, it wasn't a problem for the placement agencies or my CV either (where it is listed as such). Of course I realize I may never be given the opportunity to explain that and that it is a potential weakness, but I feel it's one that, if asked, I can easily discuss. That's one reason we felt strongly about going to a fair; it's much easier to discuss in a hotel elevator than as one of hundreds of emails. We recognize it means the difference between call back or reject on paper, though. That's why I gave the half point, but of course it could easily still be a zero.

I am also fully aware that IB does not make a first tier school. I am saying that our IB experience should still count because we do have it. Most top schools offer either the American, British, or IB curriculum (IS Bangkok, AS Paris, Frankfurt IS, SAS, WAB, ASIJ all do)--often some combination. I have American and IB experience. Hubby has American, IB, and IGCSE experience. Again, using your metric in a vacuum as a guide, I assigned the point for that. Obviously IB is less valuable than AP experience at some schools, though there is some value in IB simply for demonstrating that one can teach at the highest levels and within a structure assigned from outside the school. Isn't that why you have the point there? Most of the top schools we are targeting are either IB, American, or IB/some other or even specifically list a vacancy as IB. Again, thus the point. I wouldn't give it if the vacancy were specifically advertised as AP, obviously, as I have not taught AP, but on average the point is for having curriculum experience, so on average we both have it.

You say most elite and even first tier schools offer NC and not IB. Again, can you give examples? WAB uses IB. IS Bangkok uses IB. Yokohama uses IB. So does Frankfurt. Are those not elite schools? They may or may not use it in conjunction with the national curriculum (like IS Bangkok), but they DO use it. I know IB does not make a school elite or even first tier--having taught at what most would probably call a second tier IB school, I am familiar with the other side of the coin. I am just confused on why you say NC when in fact most use one of the three (American, though as you said, there is no true "American curriculum," British, or IB). I don't see international schools in Germany offering the German NC and Abitur, for example (except JFK, which is a very strange school that grew up out of Berlin's unique cold war history).

I believe you were making the point in order to rid me of the impression that IB=first tier, but I was never under that impression.

I also know that half time positions are not typically advertised as such, but they ARE advertised--sometimes only on the school's websites as they are looking for LHs, sometimes on Search because someone might be cross certified (see above) and they want to increase the quality of the applicant pool for the more specified position, etc. I am also fully aware that often one position is created or adapted to accommodate a licensed spouse--however, if there is an advertised vacancy for 0.5 Economics (often the harder of the social studies jobs to fill) with a FT English job, we could easily work well with that. Other times there is a full time History job but the part time unadvertised FL job could go to me, for example. My point was that we are willing to do either the trailing spouse (knowing something might open up) or the part time (in conjunction with a full time or if something less than FT opens up after the one partner has a job), not that we are finding or targeting a lot of part time positions.

I know fairs exist for the recruiters more than for the teachers, but that is no reason not to use one. The fairs DO allow teachers to make those vital face to face connections, and they offer a way of following up with the schools that is easy enough for the school to consent to an interview I might not be offered if it had to be scheduled via Skype. Yes, the fairs are a convenience for recruiters--but also for teachers if they are utilized properly. I don't know why you feel the need to get rude about it. I am not trying to get a prize for anything; I was simply asking how we stacked up. It sounds like our impressions were confirmed--we are not the pick of the litter, but we could be competitive on any given day depending on the schools and jobs involved and how well we present ourselves.

I know you are knowledgeable on this forum, PsyGuy, and I appreciate the feedback. There is no need to try to denigrate me with the "prize steer" and "decoder rings" comments; I am under no illusions about the fact that there are going to be applicants who (on paper at least) are a better fit for a job, more qualified, etc. I realize that there are reasons we might not get a call back or even an interview from a top school. However, it sounds like it is also not a complete waste of time to apply for the ones I listed or to apply separately for single jobs with the idea of a trailing spouse who will end up being hired.

It sounds like we could land those top jobs--as I said, we both interview incredibly well, and we know how to do our research in advance for cover letters, tailored CVs, and interviews. We know how to work an opportunity (I got that unadvertised maternity placement through an elevator conversation) and leverage our resources. However, we also know that we might not get the opportunity to work our magic, which is what we expected. It sounds from what you are saying like all of our homework has paid off and that we are realistic in our expectations and in our goals.

As for the citizenship--spouse needs years in country and to work on his language, but of course the plan is for him to get citizenship.

Individually, cross certified and varied experience is typically both within and outside a department, though, right?

I am certified for English all levels (and have DP experience)
Social studies/humanities most levels
Foreign language all levels (and have PYP experience)
I have taught social studies at the middle level (6-8) and English (6-12) plus the one year of elementary language

I would say that makes me relatively easy to schedule within any English department, with the possibility of some cross-departmental classes. You want to take the point away based on my spouse, but the reality is that if the points are for any given opening, I would stack up well against someone only certified in English, for example. So what precisely would qualify as getting the point if I could theoretically work in three departments (English, social studies, foreign language) and have several years' experience in two of those? Spouse is highly flexible within the social studies department with DP and MYP experience in two areas (plus some IGCSE)--6-12 social studies of any kind and he could teach it. He is certified for English as well, but no experience. I could see taking his point away.

I guess I wonder why you even have this category on here. Our experience was minimal movement between departments, both in our previous international placements and in talking with others (both internationally and domestically). However, if you won't give me a point for having experience in two and certification in three departments (regardless of what spouse teaches, I am being compared to the staff as a whole), what exactly do you expect?


We left our IS position because of the way the regional (not national) board viewed my teaching license, as at the time it did not include primary certification. While my home state's licensure program has changed and I am now licensed, I was not at the time; as my contract was only a one year maternity cover anyway and leaving did not involve breaking contracts, we decided to go home and get this fixed. The school did offer me further employment and to help me fight the licensure, but ultimately this was the easier way. I have great references. However, I know that this may not seem ideal when looking at the resume, so I can see not giving the point (which is why I said half point--you can see I am not unrealistic). We are aware that this is a weakness in our resume, but we don't believe it to be an insurmountable one--again, my contract was only one year to begin, and that is clear on my resume and CV.

You will notice I didn't give points for extracurriculars because, as you said, the points only apply if there is a need. I also didn't give hubby the point for the HOD job because, as I already said, he didn't lead anybody; he just had the paperwork! You can see that I am not unrealistic in those areas, though.

I am still confused as to why you say that 1st tier schools are not IB when they are. Virtually all of the ones I listed is an IB world school teaching the IB curriculum, either for all students or as an option in conjunction with AP or similar curriculums. I am not sure what types of schools you are considering that have a local curriculum where IB is not a major component. Can you give examples of what schools you are talking about?


Yes, the vacancies work for us--meaning these are vacancies for which we are qualified and which we have experience teaching. Obviously we don't know if they work for the ISs. We can only go off of what they post--both on websites and on recruiting sites. We do check both so we can know as much about the job as possible. Again, we also know that we need face time, which is why we are headed to London--so we can get that face time. We certainly don't want to work for all of these schools--we have interviewed with schools where, after a conversation, we know we don't want to work for a certain director (sorry, don't want to work for that sycophant you mentioned!) or that a school's processes won't work for us. Certainly finding a fit is critical for both parties, and that's true of any job, not just IT or even teaching. That's why interviews and job fairs exist, right?

We are not at all restricted to elite tier schools at all. I gave a few examples of the schools we are targeting, which may or may not be "elite" but are more likely 1st tier. We aren't limited to those, either; please don't misunderstand me on that. Those are simply schools we liked a lot who currently have two vacancies in our areas. We can make things work on one salary depending on location, we would be willing to take part time positions (again, depending on location/financial package), and of course we are looking at schools not on the sample list I put out. Of course, you may consider all of those schools 2nd tier anyway--I am really confused as to your definitions of tiers at this point.

Basically it sounds like we are realistic in our assessment of ourselves, we are moderately competitive for schools for which we have openings, and with appropriate legwork, professional and personable presentations, and a bit of luck, we can get something we will really like.

Thanks. That's helpful.

Obviously we know that our subject area situation means that job availability is a limiting factor. His being DP Econ is the only subject that is slightly harder to fill (not counting my language, for which I have a certification but only 1 year of elementary experience and is not my preferred subject). However, we have been surprised at how many schools have two jobs in our areas. Obviously job availability matters, but that's true in every subject.

Our international experience was at a truly international school (30% local students and many of those dual nationals), but it was the second school in the city, not the first. Geography seemed to be one of the bigger factors in determining which one parents chose, but the other one is the one on the state department list. This was in Western Europe. My PYP and his IGCSE and IB experience were first obtained there. Our IB experience continued upon our return to the US at our current public IB school (which has offered IB for almost 30 years, so it is well established, but obviously mostly local students).

So if I am reading your scale correctly:
9 years=4.5 points
Masters=1 point
Cross certified=1 point (or half point since we are in the same subject area?)
IB experience=1 point
Logistical hire=1 point
Previous IS=0.5 point (since it was only a one year contract, though a renewal was offered)
Leadership=0 points
Extracurricular=0 points (unless they really need an equestrian team coach ;) )
Special Populations=0 points
Special skill set=0 points

Total--9 points + EU passeport

Hubby
8 years=4 points
Masters=1 point
Cross certified=1 point
Curriculum experience=1 point
Logistical hire=1 point
Previous IS=1 point
Leadership=0 points, though he was technically HOD when he was the entire department :)
Extracurricular=0 points (I'm not counting Model UN, though perhaps it might be a selling point)
Special populations=0 points
Special skills=0 points

Hubby total=9 points

Why do you say there are few 1st tier IB ISs? I realize competing against other IB DP experienced teachers puts us on par with most teachers competing for those jobs at best, but at least we are not disadvantaged.

These schools at the London Search fair have two openings that work for us (excluded anything we have ruled out for various reasons) that are also on the State Department list:

IS Brussels
Copenhagen IS
IS Düsseldorf
IS Hamburg
AIS Vilnius
IS Amsterdam
AS Warsaw
AIS Bucharest
IS Belgrade
Fukuoka IS
IS Ulaanbataar
IS Yangon
Bishop Mackenzie IS (Lilongwe)
Rabat AS
IS Tanganyika Dar Es Salaam


Several additional schools have jobs for which one of us is a GREAT fit and the other is a stretch fit or schools that have one job and at which one salary is easily plenty (such as UN IS Hanoi). There are some not on the state dept. list that are probably pretty good, too (Vienna IS, UK schools). I'm sure I missed a bunch, too--I didn't look at Turkey, for example, even though we would absolutely consider it. I also know job availability is subject to change and that a number of these schools are going to Bangkok and CIS fairs, so this list is just a starting point (I can look at Turkey then).

I realize the tier system is subjective, informal, and highly personal. I know that we would BOTH have to impress a recruiter--thankfully we both interview incredibly well (especially hubby, who can talk his way into just about anything).

So it sounds like we'll be reasonably competitive at the London fair, even if we aren't pick of the litter simply due to our overlapping fields and the fact that we didn't "pay our dues" at a lower tier school in southeast Asia. Is that correct?

Thanks for the responses--this is helpful. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Teaching couple, no dependents:

Me: 9 years, 6 in middle school English and Social Studies, 2 high school preIB and IB DP Literature (HL), 1 PYP maternity cover language
M.Ed.
Certified English, Social Studies, European Language
One international school contract
Raised bicultural/bilingual
US/European dual citizenship

Hubby: 8 years, 4 as entire social studies department (technically HOD) middle school through College Now, experience with MYP Humanities, DP Economics, DP History (including significant leadership on curriculum adoption after IB changes), IGCSE Business Studies.
M.Ed.
Certified all social studies fields and English
One international school contract
Has run chess club, MUN, business club, outdoor ed greenhouse
US citizen


We re targeting IB schools, and while we are mostly looking in Western Europe before fair, we are also open to a lot of other places provided the jobs are good and the places interesting to us.

What are our chances at a competitive fair?

Don't lose heart. While it's true that you aren't IS gold having 3 dependents and no IE experience, you can certainly find something you will enjoy. Hubby and I were told we had zero chance of landing anything but a third tier school in places we didn't want to be. We ended up at a decent school in Western Europe as our first international gig. Be realistic, sure, but don't let some people on a forum tell you that it's impossible and stop looking. Remember that the system is both subjective (there are no official "tiers", and one man's tier 1 is another man's tier 2) and personal. What you want in a school, a job, a community is different from what someone else might want.

Be creative in your search. You'll find something that works for you.

Yes, you will. However, you will need to keep a few things in mind.

1) So will other candidates. Be prepared for rejection. Some schools really do look at paper only. You have most of the requisite boxes (IB experience, 2 years teaching internationally, Masters--sounds like a single teacher with no dependents?), but not the typical track for getting them. Some schools are really snooty about that stuff. Don't take it personally. You ARE competitive, so walk with confidence.

2) You will need to put yourself out there a bit more than others. Talk to principals in elevators, seek them out (but don't be pushy) in the hotel lobby or at the social, leverage what you do have, etc. You are obviously intelligent, well-spoken, and determined. Recruiters like those things, and they may even flex their "requirements" for you.

We went to London with NO IB experience and NO international teaching experience--just personal charm, intelligence, ambition, and my own dual EU citizenship (partner just has US). I met a recruiter on an elevator who did not have a job for me, but whose school looked good to us (Western Europe). We stopped by during the signup session, even though he had nothing for us, and we ran into him again a few times during the fair--hotel bar, on the way out to dinner one evening (invited him to join us, but he had plans), at his presentation, and even when the fire alarm forced a hotel evacuation. By the end of the fair he had tweaked the job he did have to match my husband's qualifications, and my husband had decided to go ahead and apply for the job he had originally posted for which he was partially qualified. He ended up hired, and I got a job as soon as one opened up.

So yes, compared to where we were you are ahead of the curve, and we got jobs. It just took a bit more schmoozing on our part. You'll be fine, particularly for the schools you are targeting. Aim high--you may get your dream job. If not, you are highly likely to get the job that leads you to your dream job.

Good luck!

Not much, but I interviewed with the director there, and we talked extensively. I would work for that guy any day, but it didn't fit our needs at the time (would not have worked for husband). If you want good leadership with vision and ambition, my impression was that this school has it.