PsyGuy wrote:

> If you have USD$100K/yr extra on the side your not an IT, your retired with
> a hobby thats teaching, why bother to do the teaching thing.

Two words; HEALTH INSURANCE

If I sit at home in the US as a retiree, but under the age of 65, health insurance is over $21K annually to cover myself and spouse.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @ILMathTeachr
>
> Your US pension is taxable under Italian law if you reside in Italy for 183
> or more days in a year after your two years. Italia considers you an
> Italian "resident" under two tests: a life centered in Italy,
> or being registered in the population registry as living more than 183 days
> a year in Italy, you would thus be subject to taxation of world wide
> income, even a US pension, though you will not be double taxed on it, you
> will not have to pay US taxes if you pay Italian taxes, and if you do pay
> US Taxes, then you will be able to credit the US tax payed towards your
> Italian taxes.
>
> Regardless, the tax rate for you is going to be about a third of your gross
> income. Kids make a huge difference, mainly in the form of tuition
> places/waivers, Italia considers them compensation just as coin is and with
> an average value of €10K/yr/each, they are taxed at the normal rate so
> about 30% of €10K is €3K, and with the average salary in Italia around
> €2500/mth it will take you about one and a half months of net salary just
> to pay the taxes on a childs tuition waiver (because you owe taxes on that
> €2500/mth salary which after taxes is €1750) have two kids at your IS and
> thats three months salary before you pay any expenses like living.
>
> Two other important factors, 1) Italy now isnt like it was 7 years ago. 2)
> Your experience as a tourist for two weeks is nothing like living there.
> Working in Italy is like working anywhere, you spend most of your day and
> week working, because you have a job, called teaching. Your highlight of
> the week might be eating out at a cafe with a bottle of table wine and
> people watching, maybe seeing the sun set, and then a midnight walk past
> the fountain. That will be it for the entire week, and it will get old
> really fast, just as the pan sauce and pasta you make the rest of the week
> that you wash down with a glass of cheap wine (its too expensive to have
> more than a glass a day), will get old fast. Meanwhile your living like a
> Uni student, and youre saving absolutely nothing. All those awesome things
> like weekend trips to Venice, or down to the coast, or shopping in the
> boutiques or in Milan, you cant really afford to do. If you can scrape up
> the coin to do that or live a little better you wont have the time because
> you will be like most other Italians who have temporary contracts (meaning
> second and third jobs) you will be exhausted and will have no time.

Thanks, PsyGuy. So, even if I had no trailing dependents, other than a spouse who has an EU passport, do you feel the pay for an IT in Italia is probably only sufficient for buying some cheap groceries, renting a decent flat, and dining out periodically?
If that's the case, wouldn't an extra USD 100K/year make things far more comfortable and enjoyable?

chiliverde wrote:
> Love Italy but just left for this reason. Be prepared to have someone to
> support you, or a second income, and absolutely no expectation to save.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll have a generous pension from a public system if/when I attempt to teach in Europe. La dolce vita sure seems attractive, as my wife and I loved our two weeks there 7 years ago. It strikes me as potentially frustrating to see whatever side income I have from a "2nd act teaching career" FALL if I taught for a 3rd year, but I could likely absorb the hit.

My understanding of tax law is that US citizens working abroad are expected to pay income taxes to the US, and that a treaty between Italy and the US ensures US citizens abroad aren't having to pay income taxes to Italy, too. But I keep reading on ISR how salary for year 3 IT's in Italy plummets due to the collection of Italian taxes, which doesn't happen in the first two. Can someone shed some more light on this? Especially as it relates to Americans? Are these stories from non-US citizens and therefore not applicable?

ILMathTeachr wrote:
> But saving $20K annually,
> starting at age 26 at a more conservative estimate of 8% return, would make you a
> poor in 20 years,

Did I get trolled by a mod? I typed 'poor', not poor! <<<EDIT: Confirmed auto-troll: I typed m-i-l-l-i-o-n-a-i-r-e in the quotes!
8-o

Anyway, great stories. Great to hear that a determined saver CAN pull off financial security as an IT.

caesar wrote:
>
> I've been investing $20-25k per year into a taxable account. The pension issue isn't
> that big of a deal to me because if I returned to the States, it would be to work at
> an independent school. My state has great public schools, but I like the freedom that
> working at an independent school provides.

HOLY SMOKES! Given I'm seeing people on here cite salaries of ~$30-40K, I didn't think that level of savings was doable, especially since many cite the benefits of IT as including convenience of travel. If you started at age 26 with $400/month invested at 11% return, you'd have $2MM by age 62. That'd be nice. But saving $20K annually, starting at age 26 at a more conservative estimate of 8% return, would make you a poor in 20 years, and worth $5MM by the time you're Medicare eligible. Are IS teachers, broadly speaking, actually pulling this off? Or is Caesar the exception to the trend?

I'm curious how well lifelong career IS teachers are able to really save for retirement. In the US, most states have varying levels of pension programs that you are automatically enrolled in. At worst, you have a hybrid system with a modest pension plus a 401K. Different states have different rules, but a lot of folks do little financial planning and still wind up with a pension of $50K-$100K, usually pegged to how much of a salary you made at the end of your career, after 35 years, give or take, of teaching. In exchange, those teachers usually can't draw Social Security.
I estimate I'd need about $1-2MM in cash saved to finance my retirement at the level my pension will give me me. I feel confident I NEVER would've hit that level if I had to save it all by myself. Mad respect for anyone who can!

To be 100% clear, I'm late in my public school career and make enough that none of your $$ amounts are daunting. But the prevailing wisdom seems to be it'd be a wasted motion.
I'm curious about getting some clarification by what people mean by tier I, tier 2, and tier 3 schools. Is there a specific criteria or are these geographic designations (i.e. anything in Western Europe is tier 1, regardless of how good or bad it's reputation is)?

Is it worth it to get trained in IB prior to hitting the IS job market? That is, would it enhance my chances of getting hired by an IS school? Or would it be meaningless if I have extensive teaching experience (but not in IB classes)? All thoughts appreciated!