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by Thames Pirate
Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:12 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Countries/Cities with 100K savings
Replies: 47
Views: 59074

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

Always fun when PsyGuy is back in full force. I had forgotten that I had my own abbreviation from him. Good times.

The "save 100K on 107K" is right up there with the Japanese school that needed a three way Olympic equestrian who was a BE instructor and a teacher.

Anyway, I think we all know that some people are arguing just to argue (the card catalogue statement wasn't actually about card catalogues per se, and we all know it), and the rest of us understand that while theoretically possible, it's not realistic to expect to save 100K in WE. Most of us understand what is meant by an ossified staff. Most of us feel the question has been answered, and if that answer is TPF, well, just celebrate with me that I get my own abbreviation.
by Thames Pirate
Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:56 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Recruitment Scams
Replies: 10
Views: 11598

Re: Recruitment Scams

I believe it was for three months--exactly the amount of time of a probationary period on most contracts.

Yes, this is a teaching couple's side hustle. And yes, they prey on teachers who are not aware of the many ways to get an international teaching job. I have no problem with running interview and CV help sessions and even charging a fee for them or offering individual support, but 30% of a salary, even for one month, is steep. I mean, a three year membership to Search is $225, many agencies are less than $50 a year or even free, and schools often post jobs on their sites. Active recruitment for not-yet-posted jobs or tentative positions is also common, so it often doesn't hurt to send an unsolicited application. Yet they want hundreds and even thousands of dollars for their service? That's crazy, and it is absolutely exploiting teachers who are perhaps a bit naive.
by Thames Pirate
Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:19 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Recruitment Scams
Replies: 10
Views: 11598

Re: Recruitment Scams

I saw that one. It's amazing how many desperate people there are out there that fall for that stuff. But hey, if you are unethical and have no problem parting a fool from his money, it's a great way to make big bucks for little work.
by Thames Pirate
Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:55 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Countries/Cities with 100K savings
Replies: 47
Views: 59074

Re: Discussion

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Thames Pirate
> No dont have to default to some expired or retired contracts. Just using
> the Vienna example.


I said Germany, and you talk about Vienna, but whatever. You are going to argue forever that you are right while the rest of us will roll our eyes and recognise that it is very hard to put aside 50K and nearly impossible to save 100K in most of WE. Argue all you want; realistically for what the OP wants, the answer is no, you should not reasonably consider WE.


> I wouldnt argue that Asia is better than the WE or EUR. What you call
> "ossified" i call a focus on classical education and learning.
> Whats wrong with doing things how weve always done them. Why meddle with
> something that works and isnt broken? Maybe these new ITs arent coming from
> such wonderful ISs with their new ideas. Change isnt always better, and
> change for the sake of change is rarely better. ITs should be hostile to
> newcomers that are trying to sabotage the current way of doing things.


I sure wouldn't want to be in your classroom! We are not preparing kids for life in the 20th century anymore. In the 1980s, when some of these ancient teachers started, the very concept of the internet was limited to scientists and computer geeks. Teaching how to use a card catalog is not "classical" education; it's a waste of precious time. Research has taught us a lot about how kids learn. Philosophies on the purpose of education are also different; we are no longer preparing kids for a single career. Change for its own sake isn't better, but change based on what is best for kids' needs absolutely is.

But hey, I recognise that you are arguing for the sake of arguing and that you want to troll the discussion into whether or not the field has or should change at all. You know full well that I am not saying there is something wrong with studying Oedipus; you are deliberately being obtuse and misunderstanding the point so that you can argue. Well, if you want to put words in my mouth and then argue with them, you don't need me for that.

The reality is that Vienna is not inherently better or worse than Singapore or Manila or Tokyo; there are elements that are better in each place and for each person. And schools in one part of the world or another aren't inherently better or worse; you might have ossified staff in one place and overworked in another. No school is perfect, and there are good and bad schools in every region. But you knew that this was my point, too.

I think the OP has enough to make an informed decision on WE as a place to save a lot of money, and bickering with you over your trolling comments won't alter that.
by Thames Pirate
Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:33 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?
Replies: 10
Views: 13994

Re: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?

Oooh, I like the drop down idea for savings. Because at the very least it will give you some parameters. Of course, with anonymity being an issue, I would be hesitant to use that part myself, but if I could submit with those categories blank it would be okay--some people would use them.

The salary information in general could be a bit clearer because ultimately it's a person's own responsibility to look up cost of living. I find that a salary range or estimate of some kind and information on rough tax percentage is enough for me to reasonably see what I would save in a place. In fact, it always amazes me how few people do this type of research--literally go on rent websites and get ideas of what a local apartment that meets my needs costs, look at maps of the city and public transport, price out monthly tickets, food price comparisons, etc. Sure, it's easier in some places than others, but at the end of the day you can probably get a pretty good overview of what your monthly expenses might be. But that's a topic for another thread.
by Thames Pirate
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:36 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Countries/Cities with 100K savings
Replies: 47
Views: 59074

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

fine dude wrote:
> Agree 100% with TP. Come to SE Asia if you want to grow as a professional.
> You can easily afford European vacations if you can make it to the top tier
> schools in SEA.

To be fair, that isn't quite what I said. I said that many schools in WE are ossified and many in Asia are more dynamic. Naturally there are good and bad in both regions. Find the good schools if you want to grow as a professional.

And to be fair, the general rule of thumb is that for profits and newer schools are not as good as the established ones, but not only are there exceptions, but I think those exceptions are more common in Europe.
by Thames Pirate
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:17 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Countries/Cities with 100K savings
Replies: 47
Views: 59074

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

I would actually argue that schools in Asia are often better for kids. Depending on your definition of "best for teachers," they might be better for teachers, too.

Schools in WE often have very ossified systems. Strong labor laws in WE mean schools generally have to offer a permanent contract after the initial two years. At that point it gets very hard to get rid of teachers, and they can become complacent, passive aggressive, defiant, etc. They frequently "go native"--not that living like a local is the problem per se, but that they no longer think intentionally in a way that matches or at least is sympathetic to the more transient nature of their students. You will hear things like "well, this is ________, and that's how things are done here." These teachers never leave, and they build little kingdoms in these schools--becoming department heads, coordinators, etc. When new teachers come in from wonderful schools elsewhere and try doing something new--teaching a unit that hasn't been taught before, starting a new club, offering a new way to structure a program or a new initiative--they get territorial, resistant ("that's not how we do it here"), and subsequently hostile to the people proposing the idea. So the energetic and truly international teachers give up and either adapt and lay low to avoid conflicts or move on to new schools. So you end up with high turnover among newer staff and extremely low turnover for more established staff--not a good way to be dynamic and adapt to changes in the field.

This ossification of systems rubs off on students, and you have the same tired clubs with five kids, the same tired forms of scheduling, the same curriculum, the same field trips, the same events . . . . Nothing WRONG with it, but it is not dynamic or energetic. Your swim coach might have tons of experience, but by year 22 they might not be excited about the upcoming meet. Your 9th grade humanities teacher is teaching the unit on glaciers that they have always taught, regardless of how glacial the unit is. Your primary school teachers might not care whether or not the kids know how to type or use basic programs on the computer but might cling tightly to that cursive curriculum. The DP English students WILL study Oedipus and Chronicle of a Death Foretold, and don't try bringing in any Mats'eliso Lesupi. The quality of the education is based on what kids make of it, and the standard is mediocre for most kids.

It takes REALLY strong leadership to prevent this or to combat it once it's established. Sadly many--but by no means all--of the "top" (older, established, better paying) schools in Europe look like this.

There are plenty of good schools in Europe--but the assumption that because it's in Vienna it's better is absolute rubbish. VIS might be the ossified European school described above. It might actually be a dynamic place. But we can't know based on its location or its salary.
by Thames Pirate
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:52 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Health of IT Roundup
Replies: 3
Views: 6439

Re: Health of IT Roundup

I wonder if it's too early to tell re: student numbers. I think we might see a major shift as various countries' situations change and people become more comfortable with the concept of mobility again. I think a lot of families hunkered down and kept things stable, and where changes were made, they tended toward returns to home countries rather than moving on to the next gig. That makes me think that student numbers either stagnated or decreased for most schools, but even that is changing rapidly since most people didn't know at the start of the summer. It is hard to predict how that will shake out in the coming year or two as well. Visa situations are also day-to-day, and it's unclear for many if they will be able to get into the country where they got the job or if their new colleagues will arrive.

But an interesting idea. I am in WE, and visas are not much of an issue here for most teachers (we have only a handful of new teachers, and they are coming from places where there are no issues). Enrollment, however, is unclear, though the pre-summer numbers were steady or slightly down, but with less turnover of individual students.
by Thames Pirate
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:45 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?
Replies: 10
Views: 13994

Re: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?

EyEyEy wrote:

> I would like the option, once a review has been posted, to discuss it below
> the review. For example, some reviews I have read seem to be written by
> SLT, so I think it would be useful if others can comment on a review
> pointing this out, so nobody is fooled by a misleading review. Others
> contain disprovable falsehoods that can easily be rectified by a comment.

I like this idea!
by Thames Pirate
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:43 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?
Replies: 10
Views: 13994

Re: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?

It can, but not always. Lifers, like all people, come in varying types. There's the "married a local, went native" types. There's the "I can't make more money elsewhere" types. There's the "I have a sweet gig and don't care that I am making the school hell for others" types; they are actively contributing to the negative side of the school, yet their life status gives the impression the place is great. There's the "I'm a crap teacher who landed a job I like and I can't be sacked" types. There's the "my wife likes it here and the kids like it here even though I am miserable because the school sucks" types. There's the "admin gives me anything I want" types.

So yes, they are all a choice, but their staying may or may not be related to the quality of the school. Their presence offers no insight, and it can skew things like averages. More than one contract is also problematic because often, particularly in Europe, you get an "unlimited" contract after your initial one. Or maybe you're at one of those rare one-year-contract schools. That can affect that number. So there is no good way to measure it, but it could be in the list of suggested comments rather than in a numeric score. So someone might say "Of those who are not lifers, most stay 2-4 years." I've seen reviews that say things like "people don't stay" or "turnover is high" or other similar comments. So I would say that if it is truly a significant talking point, it's already often mentioned.
by Thames Pirate
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:29 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Countries/Cities with 100K savings
Replies: 47
Views: 59074

Re: Countries/Cities with 100K savings

PsyGuy might know some folks on some old, no-longer-offered contracts that exist at some schools and pay in the 90K range, but even at net 104K you'd have to live on 4K in Germany. Yeah, not going to happen even if you are living in a tent.

I agree the 50K is an absolutely optimistic amount, but for determined people who live somewhat conservatively it is possible. I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt. But realistically it's probably a generous amount based on absolute top dollar contracts with special responsibilities (HOD or coordination pay). Certainly if you are doing that and netting 93K it's possible to save 50K, but most people won't, even if they land two of those jobs at the top of the pay scale and don't have kids. And good luck getting 2 HOD jobs at top schools at all. Most people will be on the 65-70K side of the salary scale at even the top schools in Germany.

That said, it's clear you can save money in WE. Just not as much as elsewhere in the world. And certainly not 100K.
by Thames Pirate
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:36 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?
Replies: 10
Views: 13994

Re: Improving the ISR reviews - what would you add?

Heliotrope wrote:

> 1. Average number of years an IT stays at the school

This might be tough as one might not be able, at larger schools, to calculate the average. Also, you always have lifers and transients. So maybe formulate it differently? Not sure how to do that, but I do think knowing that the lifers that have gone native stay and everyone else stays only 2 years or even breaks contract can be helpful.

> 2. Savings potential (rather than or in addition to the salary question)
> with an indication if that is for a family/single/teacher couple

Also tough because family, lifestyle, flights, etc. are so variable. I can save at a school which pays less than another in the same city while others can't save at the higher paying school. Super subjective, so the salary range is helpful, especially if you include the post-tax or gross amounts as suggested below. Maybe include a cost of housing range. I once had a director tell me people could get an apartment for 20% less than what the average cost; he was trying to be helpful, but he was so out of touch. My own research on the city made it clear that while his number was POSSIBLE, it wasn't very PROBABLE. We signed anyway and were not disappointed, but our housing estimates were more in line than the director's.

> 5. Average commute (or minimum/maximum commute)

Also tough; if housing is not provided, singles might want to live in the city centre and families further out--sometimes far out--regardless of the location of the school. The school in the city centre that is also mostly full of young teachers would score well. But location in general or ease of access might be useful information; schools far off a train line or that require a car are less ideal for many teachers.

> 8. Perceived difficulty of getting a job at the school

Also tough because if you got the job, the perception is that it's reasonably doable. And then you wonder how the bozo next to you got the job, not realising that the job was posted late or that this was a particularly tough year for finding good [subject] teachers and this was the best option. Or you see someone with minimal experience and you think "maybe it's easier to get a job than I thought," not realising the person lied on their resume or is actually brilliant.

> 13. What tier you would say this school is (1,2,3 or 4)

Not sure I like this one. Too subjective.

> 14. Do you teach in Primary or Secondary?

As anonymity is important, I would make this optional

> A. Separate average scores for the city/country & the school

YES! A great school in Bangladesh might score similarly to a mediocre or poor school in Europe or other countries where healthcare is excellent.

> C. Add a section about what they know about other schools in the same
> city/country, and perhaps a ranking (‘other ISs in the same city that are
> better / worse / about the same’), as teachers often know a fair bit about
> the other ISs in the same city.

I wonder if this is useful; if I am considering School A, I don't care how it compares to School B.

> D. Add a Google Maps link for the school

People can do their own research here. And on Numbeo.

> F. Add ‘after taxes’ to the ‘Yearly salary range for teachers in US
> dollars’-question

Yes!


[quote="fine dude" post_id=61701 time=1627219464 user_id=105776]
You have a nice list there. I would add:
- Length of contract and conditions for renewal
- Type of health insurance (individual / family/ cashless/ deductible etc.)
- Annual Bonus
- Pension contributions
- Professional development (Differentiated / fixed allowance)
- Chances of internal promotion / growth
[/quote]

I like these.

[quote=Illiane_Blues post_id=61703 time=1627220551 user_id=235743]
Nice lists! The bit about other schools in the same city would be very helpful yes - teachers usually know which international schools in the city are top and which ones should be avoided.
I would add
- List of all benefits
- Any tips for applying at the reviewed school and which method they prefer: agency or direct?
- Average workload and what time most teachers leave campus
- Would you want your own child to attend this school?
- Something about the use of technology at the school
[/quote]

I like these.

It seems a lot of the suggestions are somewhat comment-based.

Here are my thoughts:
I would like to see the "score" be split into two parts with separate scores. So one part is "School / Working Conditions"--this might be things like director's involvement, extracurricular workload, etc. and the other part is "Community / living conditions" which include things like local attitude toward foreigners, quality of healthcare, difficulty of getting visas

Some questions I would add or modify for the school:
--"Support for families and spouses" instead of "family friendly"--that feels different from family/child friendly, which should also be teased out. I might send my kid there gladly, but my spouse who isn't working might be miserable and lonely.
--"Quality and consistency of systems" to address how fairly discipline is addressed, how well the school handles simple and complex things like exams, fire drills, and placements, curriculum management, etc.
--Maybe something about teaching load and overall work load expectations
--Hard because it's subjective, but maybe find a way to ask about sense of community / collegiality?
--Trend or direction of school--is the school improving but still scoring a bit low, is the school resting on its high scores? So maybe "School is trending towards positive change"?

Some questions I would add or modify for the community
--Separate out family vs. child friendly. A single or young couple or empty nester might not care about playgrounds or kids sports leagues. Parents don't care about the club scene. Food scene might also have a different target audience. So finding a way to separate this out might be helpful.
--physical environment (air quality, green spaces)
--Pet friendly


These scores should be TOTALLY separate.

I would also like to see the two score averages posted. So if the average for the school is 4.7, is that because the city score is high or because the school is good? If you have a separate rating, you might find the school average is 2.2 but the city score is 7.6 or something (note that I did not do math on these under the current system, I'm just spitballing as an example). If I see a school with a score of 8 regardless of the local situation, I am impressed, while if I see a school with an average of 3 I am concerned. But under the current system the scores often tend toward the middle.

The comments are indeed the most important part, and while I understand the need to do it quickly sometimes, I prefer the details. For the few reviews I have written on admin / schools I have tried to use the questions and my scores as a guide on what to write.

I actually would also want to change the admin review section.
by Thames Pirate
Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:14 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Countries/Cities with 100K savings
Replies: 47
Views: 59074

Re: Response

PsyGuy wrote:

> You could do it in some parts of the WE (IE. Germany) but youd have to
> again be on the upper stages and band and mitigate the cost of housing.
> Such that your living cost and taxes eat less than half of one salary.

Uh, no. Not if you are teaching (yes for admin, but not for teachers). The top paying ISs in Germany pay 65-80K, so a higher double salary is about 160K. You'd pay 42% taxes, leaving you with 93K. You can tweak it a bit, but not by much. Then recall that German ISs that pay those salaries don't cover any living expenses. Once you factor in rent, living expenses, etc., you are looking at maybe 50K in savings on two salaries with no kids and moderately conservative in your spending. The rest of WE is similar. This is why I say you absolutely CAN save money in WE, but nowhere near 100K.
by Thames Pirate
Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:41 pm
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Local vs. Overseas Hire in the EU
Replies: 19
Views: 23007

Re: Local vs. Overseas Hire in the EU

Uh, we've always gotten a relocation allowance for shipping. It's been a per person allowance and is generous enough for most people who aren't pack rats and moving with everything and the kitchen sink. Flights were also included. Pets were considered part of that when luggage, or shipping allowance when shipped separately. So yes, relocation assistance. And in my experience if you let the school know before the job fairs that you are leaving, they offer a small departure shipping assistance. It serves as an incentive to let the school know early so they can recruit early. This is because local laws prohibit the insanely early decision dates and the associated creep that many contracts in other countries set; most of the time you have until May to decide. So the schools offer the incentive.

Of course, again, each school is different, but that's always the case, regardless of region.

Most of the time, housing is not included (unless it's a boarding school or something).

What isn't included is the annual flights home.
by Thames Pirate
Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:48 am
Forum: Forum 1. From Questions About ISS & Search to Anything and Everything About International Teaching
Topic: Local vs. Overseas Hire in the EU
Replies: 19
Views: 23007

Re: Local vs. Overseas Hire in the EU

I think it really depends on the school and to some extent the location. Some schools are able to hire as needed based on their status with the local government, while others have to hire EU first or have to hire a certain percentage of EU citizens. The well-known and more established schools seem to have worked out how to make it work and be very international; of course, many of them predate the EU, which helps.

So yes, having the passport can be an advantage.

I did want to say to the OP that most schools do cover at least a chunk of the relocation--I have seen reimbursements and allowances up to a certain amount with receipts submitted. This is especially true of the more established schools. But that should be discussed upon hire and written into the contract.