Modernist is right that there's no free lunch. A brick-and-mortar Master's with at-home experience is leagues better, etc., but people also pay a lot of money for Jesus on toast.

You would also be right to post on a medical forum with someone asking about their competitiveness with an osteopathic residency and say, "Why are you doing D.O.? Don't you understand that an allopathic residency and a Johns Hopkins degree is way better?"

Always technically correct, but the reality is that many people work with the best they've got.

The question is whether you can have a shit resume for the price of air priority shipping, or if you need to pay $6,000 to have a shit resume. Several in this thread are saying the former.

Thanks Modernist, will keep in consideration.

LaylahH, I appreciate your advice, though I admit I am less... optimistic, I'd say, about the average person's eagerness to have such a friendly conversation. Maybe I'm just feeling a little Ebenezer Scrooge this year. The pandemic also complicates things, but later I can politely request people's time without pestering them.

Shadowjack, I should have specific that this with zero competitive resume experience. I know that renewing or upgrading the UT AEL or MA Provisional is possible, though I haven't specifically outlined how yet. I've been informed the NJ Standard, CA Clear, or HI Standard are options. I'm sure there are finer details and extenuating circumstances, however.

I'm budgeting to afford Teacher Ready should I require it, as the online course is self-paced and I don't mind returning to the US for my teaching exams and mentor teaching. I just obviously won't spend the money if I don't have to, as I'd rather invest it in a regionally-accredited Master's or maybe Bitcoin or tech industry stocks.

A previous thread I posted outline a lot of this, but I feel this was a question I neglected to ask and am doing my research to ensure that should I begin teaching on a provisional, I won't regret it in two years.

Succinct question.

I've heard it argued that even if someone were to pursue the UT AEL or MA Provisional, the experience they could acquire under said licensing wouldn't be equal to the experience someone acquires after acquiring a professional license -- even something like Teach Now or Teacher Ready. As in, their first two years wouldn't be seen as competitive.

I have no idea if this is true or not. It's the Internet. I'm skeptical, but it would be useful to get input for someone still considering their licensing path and either have my skepticism confirmed or dismantled.

@JasperTheCat
>>> Is WGU legit? What are the perceptions of WGU program? How do potential ISs view graduates from this school?

I don't know regarding how teachers are viewed but WGU is regionally-accredited and I've primarily seen it discussed as a viable opportunity for people who switch to computer science. I assume it would be the same for education.

@RDLLCR

>>> I believe the masters programs for already certified teachers does not have that restriction - but I'll verify. So, my thought process was to get some kind of license (UT or MA) then enroll in the WGU program. It does look like the website says nobody outside the US can apply, but lots of folks online saying they did it online anyways. I'll look into it further, but if it doesn't work I'll check out other programs.

Please feel free to share what you find out, then. Your good news is my good news.

Consider that WGU only allows US military to study outside the country. I have called them personally and confirmed this -- it was a blunt "no". There are loopholes such as forwarding proctored exam materials and documents from your US address, but they're pretty clear on the stipulation and you may or may not face consequences for violation.

You have several other options for a Master's, but just outlining that.

UT AEL or MA provisional is my current path, but I'm still learning a lot about my personal competitiveness with such a credential. While Teacher-Ready definitely isn't as quick as a provisional, you can finish as quickly as you want and then do exams at a Pearson VUE site with mentored teaching in the US in a few weeks. Definitely my backup if I find I'm not very competitive with a provisional.

I have no idea how competitive you are in Latin America without prior teaching experience. I'm interested in replies you'll get because they'll factor into my own ongoing job hunt.

Modernist,

I appreciate your remarks. I'm like Trump, how can I have bad international relations with someone who says such nice things about me?

On a more serious note, I think that what you say comes from years of untying that mental knot on how one can advance abroad. It's the same knot many ESL teachers start untying around the end of their first contract -- when the daily novelty of expat life loses its luster, but the routine is still desirable. ESL is a high floor and a low ceiling.

You're also correct in saying that I could go back home and teach for two years... I just don't want to. And yeah, sometimes the answer is, "Tough." Before teaching I seriously weighed the military, but I decided it was an unacceptable trade of security for autonomy. Teaching, also, has a trade-off but -- provided I can stay abroad -- the trade is acceptable to me. Nobody gets to have their cake and eat it too, though.

Right now I like the approach of seeing what's possible abroad with a provisional license. But if I have to return to the US for credentials and experience, I want to get started sooner rather than later. I'm risking a few months of my life versus $6,000 and nine months for TN, or thousands and two years for returning stateside. I do admit that provisional certificates looked like a Saul Goodman University of American Samoa Law Degree way of doing things, but seem legitimate for people still pursuing higher credentials and degrees.

I appreciate your explanation of the urban-rural barrier existing less in other countries. I lived isolated on a fairly remote island in Korea one year abroad, but as you've said, Korea's tight-knit geography is a far cry from China's sheer mass. I was always two hours' max from an urban expat area on the weekends.

Anyway, keeping this brief as it's more of a social post than asking/answering any questions. Thanks to all again, and I hope the questions I've asked will help any lurkers doing their own research. I'll periodically be checking here to see if anyone brings up points I should consider. Otherwise, I'll be credentialed with my relevant endorsements by February and then I assume I will learn a great many things about my place in today's global job market.

aleconner,

>>> "I would rather start out at a third tier school in a fun city in China or Brazil than go through a four-year credentialing program in my local public school district resulting in a provisional credential that then requires plenty of hoop-jumping to make permanent."

I think some of the criticism for the provisionally-credentialed pathway is that we literally can't teach low-tier in cities we consider livable, because those positions can still be filled by teachers with two years' experience. Doesn't hurt to try though, if you accept that you're wasting a bit of time should you ultimately have to return to the drawing well for a professional certificate.

s0830887,

Noted, thanks for your advice on using TES and checking the openings.

>>> "I also taught ESL in SK and honestly if you can thrive at a hagwon you'll have the patience to get through a few years at a crappy international school."

Do you know what an NQT's expectations can be in terms of urban or rural placement? Or is that not really a common distinction? (i.e. something like NQTs frequently needing to grind out rural positions before competing for urban contracts)

Heliotrope,

>>> "PsyGuy is the only one on this forum who uses it. It means Letter Writer. The rest of us would have used OP (original poster)."

Got it, thanks.

I for the life of me can't figure out what LW means, though I know it refers to me. Looking Worker? Lone Wanderer?

PsyGuy, I've taken the practice test for the Praxis and it doesn't seem to be too difficult, though as Modernist said it's clearly a baseline and not the best estimation of true skill/knowledge. I'm being processed for an alternative license and if there are any roadblocks, I know studying for the MTEL is another option.

One lingering question: Should I still join Search Associates to look for an intern teaching contract? I know my best bets right now are bilingual and private schools, locally-owned, etc.

>>> "China isnt the only region that accepts credentialed ITs. Vietnam, Myanmar, Laos, Thailand outside of the little tigers its not a hard limitation."

Do you mean to say "uncredentialed ITs"? As my question to Modernist was where he could feasibly go outside of China, having subject-taught without a credential.

Thanks again, all.

Modernist, thanks for replying.

>>> "I personally think PsyGuy is being a bit optimistic about the chances of landing a good position given your background."

The message and intent I got from PsyGuy -- paraphrased -- was "You have zero practical experience, but at the very least you can avoid paying thousands of dollars to find out if nobody wants you." If that's sunny optimism, I'd hate to see dour. Their input, though, has been helpful as I'd rather learn my worth for dimes instead of dollars.

>>> "I don't think there are an overwhelming number of schools, on or off 'the circuit' who hire 100% ICT and if they do, they might look for something a bit more substantial than a passed Praxis exam and TeachNow, UT AEL, MA Provisional, or whatever other pseudo-license can be cobbled together while living abroad."

>>> "I actually have a colleague in my school now who has that UT 'credential.' She says she cannot renew it at all and it's going to be a dead letter, useless going forward. And by the way, she earns ~7% less than I do, although she has that credential and I have no such thing. Credentials are not the be all end all for a decent job and better pay."

What has your colleague done to upskill in order to renew the UT AEL? If you don't have a credential, then are you able to teach outside of China?

I don't understand your scorn for the provisional licensing route when it's more than $5,000 cheaper than the next alternative (Teach-Now) and you -- in the same breath -- are saying that credentials don't matter as much as others claim. From what I've researched it sounds the same on paper unless you've taught in your home country for years, taught low-tier, or hold a regionally-accredited and relevant Master's.

>>> "I had a colleague a couple of years ago who got TeachNow, and used it to get a position at what seemed like a fancy Egyptian school. He said it was a disaster teaching there. Spoiled rich brats who cared about nothing and argued about everything, every day. He quit after a year. TeachNow-only CVs are pretty obvious, these days. Reputable schools aren't going to be interested in those. Teaching at low-tier schools can be pretty unpleasant, if you're not careful."

>>> "In China, there are so many 'international' schools and programs, there's such a gap between good and bad. Our school has another, totally separate program downstairs with kids not even half as capable as hours, and pay that's probably 70% or less than what we make. There's another campus of our school, same name, that has even worse conditions for foreign teachers (students are a couple of notches above feral animals, I've been told directly). I know a high school in Dongguan that has both a very good IB program with excellent students and a dual-degree Canadian program with absolute moron students who have been kicked out of other programs. All the teaching staff are technically employed by the same International Departments of the same high schools, but the work experiences are hugely different."

>>> "PS: I saw a mention of Myanmar as a 'hardship post' in Asia that isn't China...that's for sure. Myanmar is VERY VERY rough. I spent about 10 days there a couple years ago. Yangon is just barely tolerable, the rest of the country...yikes. Mandalay is possibly the worst city I've ever visited in Asia. Better visit first, that is a HUGE jump from Korea in terms of just about everything."

Well, international schools are privatized education, and standards/school cultures are going to vary wildly, especially for China and its remaining clemency for uncertified teachers who want subject-teaching experience. Some countries are better than others. Kids are disrespectful. Some administrators prioritize profit over learning. We live in a less-than-ideal world, sure.

I don't know you, and can't assume anything about you. If you've taught ESL in Korea and you now teach English in China, then we have practically the same resume. I could do that too (except I don't want to). Anything I do beyond that is an addition -- however substantial or marginal -- to my CV, not a subtraction.

You mentioned studying the IG/IB/AP/etc. curricula to begin with, and thank you for that. The CS Praxis closely resembles the APCSA and CSP curriculum from what I can see, which is one such example. It's mandatory for the relevant CTE endorsement which is why I'm focused on it.

So I have some options outside of using my English-teaching endorsement:
1) The Grind -- Get license and ICT endorsement, teach low-tier while upskilling/completing degree
2) The Hardship Tier -- Move to rural America for two years, acquire more competitive teaching experience
3) The Full Metal Jacket -- Get beaten by the job market, enlist in the military as O-1 and ask Uncle Sam for tuition money

First two have similar lack-of-expertise/experience woes that only time will fix. Yes, option two is the tried-and-tested method for becoming markedly more competitive. Maybe the job market will show me I have to do that if teaching is what I really want to do.

PsyGuy, that's what I'm doing currently. AEL modules/paperwork/background check and studying for the CS Praxis.

I'm still unsure what they define as "appropriate professional development" in terms of accreditation, and am checking on it early next week while confirming that my completed modules are logged. I know the Utah DoE doesn't want the AEL to be some Monopoly Teach for Life Card, so I feel without a Utah address there would be some discretion involved in renewal. To be honest, I haven't worried about it much since I have solid plans to pursue a Master's once I begin subject teaching. If I'm mistaken or ignorant of any unknown renewal pitfalls, I'd appreciate being corrected.

PsyGuy,

Understood. I've began the process for licensure and am completing necessary modules, etc. Also preparing to take the CS Praxis and then I guess that will be the first real litmus test for my light resume.

As I understand it, the tradeoff is the MA provisional license never expiring, but at the same time international experience will never count towards professional licensing. An acceptable deal, given plans to continue upskilling. The UT AEL may be similarly lax with the same give-and-take, but I haven't confirmed this.

>>> "The approach would essentially be start with the 3 year UT credential and if it works out for you instead of renewing it, take the appropriate MTEL exams to obtain the MA Provisional credential. HI is how you professionalize either the UT or MA credentials as discussed above. After you have 3 years of appropriate edu experience you can then apply for the HI Standard (Professional grade) credential, which then would allow you (highly likely) to obtain QTS (a lifetime credential from the UK) since your teaching areas would be in subjects you have an academic (degree) background in. The other option would be to then use the HI Standard credential to obtain either the CA CLEAR or NJ Standard (both Professional grade credentials). The CA credential is valid for 5 years but requires no PD to renew and the NJ Standard credential is a lifetime credential."

Understood. I've saved this in my notes to look back on in a few years, or sooner.

>>> "If its Russia or bust then in the summer just pack, get on a plane and go there [...]"

I haven't ruled it out, and you've raised good points about needing one's ear to the ground. I'm personally interested in leaving Korea (not to say I don't appreciate how good the country's been, I've just been here long enough and it's time to branch out) but don't want to worry prematurely about destinations until, as you've said, I have more market data on how employable I am.

Beyond that, I can't think of any questions I have at this time. I've learned a lot about this process and know what needs to be done/studied. The next round of research and questions will begin, I assume, when it's time to apply for jobs and subsequently when it's time to look at specific CS and relevant teaching endorsement programs (the latter which may be more relevant to ask on a tech forum).

Thanks for your help, all.

>>> "In addition to a M.Ed, UPe has a BS in CSci, they accept up to 90 credits and the major is 19 courses. which would cost you USD$2340, you could do that and the UPe M.Ed for what Teach Now would cost you."

While I suppose the exact program to consider for M.Ed/CS certification is an entirely separate question, I guess the point is that I'd have an extra $6,000 and an additional six months or so to consider that path, versus Teach-Now taking $6,000 and nine months of my time.

(Wasn't able to edit my previous post and reply to this.)

PsyGuy,

Would you recommend the UT AEL over the MTEL? After doing some reading, my guess is you recommended UT due to Praxis competency in subjects that aren't my English major and the fact that a UT Level One Educator License can be renewed after three years with no experience in any UT public or private school.

Unless I'm mistaken, with the MTEL I'd be limited to English until I completed a degree in another field, and expiration is a concrete timeline of five years. There is a Computer Science MTEL being offered beginning Summer 2021, though.

So, you're recommending a provisional licensing option because to a T3 school, there's really no difference between a guy who did that and a guy who spent $6,000 on a D.C. license -- and until I begin working T3, my resume is effectively zilch.

After my early twenties I'm not a fan of spending money on education unless I have to (it's why I have yet to spend a dime on CS, though I would if I could confidently state the degree would lead to a market-proven salary bump).

>>> "Just because Teach Now and SA partnered together doesnt mean you get a side way into registering with SA, you typically need two years post credentialing experience, but you may be able to register with SA as an intern upon completing Teach Now."

Understood, thanks.

>>> "Russia, probably zero, I man there are some ISs paying USD$600/mt that would take you but thats minion coin."

I wouldn't mind treating a hardship tier as the opportunity to become more proficient in the language, which is why I asked. My first priority is earning and experience potential, though. I also don't mind looking outside of China or the Middle East, so that's why I've considered virtually any Russian-speaking country believing (perhaps erroneously) that savings could still be possible with salary proportional to living costs. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong; I usually always consider killing two birds with one stone, but a foreign language isn't a career requirement for me and isn't important.

To summarize:

1) Get a provisional teaching license (UT is recommended, MA another valid option, HI?, etc.)
2) Continue pursuing CS competency while applying to jobs

Then for (3) I would be completing requirements to extend my license beyond the provisional time period (3 years for UT, 5 years for MA)? That would be state-specific, but in general an M.Ed would help that I assume.

Thanks, as always, for your time and info. Does look like a better plan is beginning to form.