Sometimes I reply because I think some people reading your reply might see the many holes in your many arguments (I know, I'm very likely underestimating the readership of this forum), but in this case I'm pretty sure everyone will. Saves me the trouble of replying in length.

So I'll keep it short:
Yes, we disagree.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> Neither of your scenarios are about different things, they are about
> related "things". Youre rationalizing that they are.

You're welcome to call them related.
Still, you've never had two different emotions about two different aspects of the same event?

Can you perhaps imagine being happy so many friends showing up for little PsyGuy's 7th birthday ., but also sad your best friend Timmy wasn't able to make it due to a cold?
If your family home was struck by an earthquake while you were out, killing most of your family, would you not still be happy if you unexpectedly found one them still alive under the rubble, while also being sad that the rest didn't make it?
If you found out you overpaid for a painting and were mad about that, would you really be unable to still appreciate it's beauty?

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> The rationalization that both are attainable given real world contexts.
> Youll dismiss it by claiming youre capable of forming and holding contrary
> thoughts and feelings at the same time. Ill counter that process is called
> rationalization. You will retort that it isnt, I will respond with a meme
> of dismissiveness while reasserting that it is, and which will then repeat
> in cycle until one of us ceases; upon which the last poster will mentally
> declare victory. Which should not be unexpected by either of us.

Those two feelings aren’t contrary, because they’re about different things. I can be unhappy about the prisoner swap, and at the same time relieved that he’s finally home with his family. Sure, a good outcome depends on a bad event — but that doesn’t make the emotions contradictory.
If my father passed away and left me his car right after mine broke down, I could feel both grief over his death and relief that he left me the car instead of his wine collection. Those two emotions would be directed at different aspects of the same event.

PsyGuy wrote:
> Youre trying to accredit third part indices on the basis of no other
> premise than that you deem them reputable, manufactured by self-proclaimed
> experts, on the basis of their arbitrarily constructed metrics and subject
> to data collection of bias prone observations.

World Justice Project uses experts - usually practicing lawyers, judges, academics, and NGO professionals - chosen for expertise in law, civil society, and governance. The methodology is reviewed by an independent international expert committee of legal scholars and statisticians.
Contributors typically hold law degrees, PhDs, or senior NGO/government posts.
Freedom House has their country reports drafted by a regional expert or scholar, often academics, journalists, or policy - with long experience on that country, using many national and international area experts. Drafts are then reviewed by regional advisors and by in-house staff before final scoring. Many authors are specialists with PhDs and/or extensive field experience.
Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index is produced by the research and - division of The Economist Group (UK), using both quantitative data and expert assessments by - who are experts in their field and external regional specialists, economists and political scientists with strong regional specialization with advanced degrees.
In short: not 'self-proclaimed', but actual experts who do thorough and checkable research. But you're welcome to go with your gut rather than these experts.


> I dont think, I know that Türkiye is a European country. This is referred
> to as a fact rather than your mounting collection of opinions.

Of course Türkiye is (partly) European. I'm just saying that you saying it's European is not a very strong argument.


> Maybe Miss Pedo should have considered being falsely accused given the
> preponderance of sources available.

I agree: there are many sources available that show Turkey’s judiciary has become significantly less independent and less reliable since 2013.
You're making my point for me.


> Is your claim of more than 50% of IT in IE employed and resident in regions
> where the judicial system is lacking to some degree based on anything more
> than the musings and conjecture of @Heliotrope, because if it isnt than my
> retort is a hand waving and dismissive ~meh~.

I'd say all countries have a judicial system is lacking to some degree, no country has a perfect judicial system. Lots of them are lacking severely though, and I don't think teachers always consider how much it is in their host country, although the overwhelming majority of teachers will not experience the consequences this can have. Sadly, it seems like Rebecca highlights that these risks are very real.


> I have a Magic 8 Ball I can shake to, but no one "knows" if a
> judicial process like a trial is going to be fair.

Nope, but by doing research you can get a sense of the likelihood that the trial is going to be fair. I think most people would agree the chances of getting a fair trial will be much better in Denmark than in Türkiye.


But I'm quite confident you realize full well that this case is build on quicksand, and that the Turkish judicial system is severely lacking. I'm also quite sure that if you were falsely accused of the same, you would not return to Türkiye either. But hey, trollers are gonna troll.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> So this is how rank ordering works. If I have 10 students and their scores
> on an assessment range from the 90th percentile to the 100th percentile,
> one of them or some group of them performed worst (the bottom) compared to
> the others, but the 90th percentile is a pretty high score even if its the
> bottom of the range.
> Out of 142 (or some other X of y) countries someone has to rank at the
> bottom.
>
> The "World Justice Project" and its reports are just the
> publications of some organizations opinion, its no different and no more
> authoritative than anyone elses opinion. Türkiye is still Europe, its not
> Russia or N.Korea.
>
> Political scientists and democracy indexes are likewise just opinions of
> people. America is an authoritarian regime. In England individuals were
> arrested for speech they on social media. Not hallmarks of liberal
> democracy.
>
> Freedom House is just more organizational opinions.

You're trying to discredit reputable indices compiled by experts in their fields, but you think your "Türkiye is a European country its not some authoritarian governed dictator state" is a better argument?


> None of these data points were kept from Miss Pedo, she wasnt held at gun
> point and forced to enter or work in Türkiye. She voluntarily and willingly
> put herself in that situation. Its kind of like going to Russia with
> illegal drugs and when bad things happen being surprised. If Türkiye is
> such a bad region, why would Miss Pedo get on the plane.

I'm sure she wasn't planning on being (falsely) accused when she made that decision. Probably over half of international teachers are working in countries where the judicial system is lacking to various degrees. I think nobody really considers there will be false charges thrown out you, because it doesn't happen a lot.


> Miss Pedo doesnt know if the trial would be fair because shes chosen to be
> a fugitive from a European country that issued a lawful warrant and which
> Interpol subsequently issued a red notice for her arrest and detention.
> Shes beaten extradition from England but that doesnt apply to anywhere
> else, or any other EU country.

Well, not knowing if the trial is going to be fair is a good reason to stay in the UK. And there are certainly reasons for her to think it might be unfair.


> I wouldnt go to Türkiye in the first place.
> Im highly doubtful you would return to Türkiye willingly if you were
> rightfully and justifiably accused of the same (nor Denmark for that
> matter).

If I were guilty of such a crime, I would stay in the UK of course. But if I was innocent, I'd still wouldn't return to Türkiye given how experts rate their judicial system.
However, if I was innocent I would return to Denmark to clear my name, although it's likely the lack of evidence would make it a non-starter there.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> Im sure you think so, theyre your neurotransmitters so whatever works for
> your brain chemistry.
>
> That type of rationalization and affective assurance only exists in the
> mire of your mind where it can exist as a thought experiment, and for which
> you can dismiss consequences, repercussions, and complexities of factors
> and variables with the wave of plot armor and script immunity. It ignores
> the cold stone reality that these adversarial regimes are not going to
> trade nobodies in like kind.
>
> You are in a position of power though. You elect these people to represent
> and carryout these actions. When you vote youre exercising political
> authority. Those deals are made on your behalf.


Likewise.

What rationalization?

Yes, indirectly there's a modicum of power a voter has.
I was talking about discretionary power over whether or not the trade is done or not though.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> I understood the nuance.
>
> I suppose, but your position seems to imply you can have it both ways.
> Youre happy hes out, but you dont like the composition of the trade and its
> ramifications, that seems very convenient for you. It avoids you having to
> take a zero-sum position on the issue. If it was your call would you have
> traded an IT (Fogel) for a cyber criminal who laundered money through a
> crypto exchange for global criminals and their enterprise? If you would
> have still done the trade than your displeasure for these types of trades
> is little more than whimsical musings. If you wouldnt have done the deal,
> than you would rather him be in a gulag on inflated petty charges, and your
> emotional state of happiness at his release becomes moot.

No, you can simultaneous be unhappy that a trade has been made (since it will encourage Russia and other countries to make similar arrests with the intent of making similar trades in the future), but still be happy for Mr. Fogel that he's out.
I'm fortunate I'm not in a position of power where I have to decide these sorts of things, since either way I'd feel miserable about it, even though long-term it would be better not to make those trades (for reasons mentioned).

PsyGuy wrote:
> Türkiye is a European country its not some authoritarian governed dictator
> state.


Uhm, in the World Justice Project 'Rule of Law Index 2023', Türkiye was ranked 117th out of 142 countries.
It scores poorly on constraints on government powers, fundamental rights, and civil justice.

Also, no on 'dictator state' but yes on 'authoritarian governed'. Türkiye is however widely regarded (by political scientists and democracy indexes) as an authoritarian regime rather than a liberal democracy.
Freedom House 2024 classifies as “Not Free” with a score of 31/100.
On the Democracy Index 2023, Türkiye ranks 103rd out of 167 countries.
It ranks 115th of 180 countries in perceived corruption (lower ranking = more corrupt).

It looks like she has plenty of reasons to believe there's a reasonable chance she won't receive a fair trial, so that might the actual reason for her unwillingness to return.
I'm highly doubtful you would return to Türkiye willingly if you were wrongfully accused of the same. I certainly wouldn't. I would however return if it had been Denmark rather than Türkiye, since I have way more faith in fairness of the Danish judicial system.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> And all Im stating is that I am NOT a member of the group you identify as
> "we", that is "happy for Marc Fogel that hes no longer
> detained in Russia".

Good to know. Not totally unexpected - it's why I used "Perhaps" instead of "I'm sure" in my earlier reply, but I was still hoping to find some common ground for a change.
At least we found out we're both against these kinds of prisoner trades.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Heliotrope
>
> No, were not in agreement. Im not happy or satisfied that the American
> government keeps exchanging very serious Russian criminals for what amount
> to petty drug carriers.

I said that we could perhaps be happy that he's out and with his family, not that we have to be happy he got traded.

I'm very, very much against those kinds of prisoner trades, because that just incentivises foreign regimes to arrest foreigners on trumped-up charges just sp they can later be traded for whoever they want released.

That doesn't mean I can't be happy for Marc Fogel that he's no longer detained in Russia.

PsyGuy wrote:
> He wasnt wrongfully detained, he was arrested for possession of an illegal
> substance (marijuana) which he was illegally in possession of. His American
> prescription for it does not mitigate the illegality of it. As in the case
> of Brittney Griner, the US exchanged a Russian cyber criminal convicted on
> money laundering offenses. Not exactly a balanced exchange.

That debate has been had before in a different topic, so I won't reply to your comment and repeat the same debate here.
Perhaps we can agree that we're all happy for the man and his family that he got out.

Michelle wrote:
> Today I received an email from my new school. They are asking me to DHL my
> passport to them so they can get my work visa stamped into it. This sounds
> very suspicious to me. I didn't find this job through Search or ISS. I'm
> afraid this is a scam. Has anyone heard of such a thing? Help!

@Michelle
Just curious: how did this play out?

CeeCee1 wrote:
> He has been released.

Glad the U.S. government ultimately recognized that he was wrongfully detained, and got him freed in a prisoner swap.
I can't imagine the hardships he had to endure. I'd rather be in a Scandinavian prison for 12 years than be in a Russian prison for 4.

zenteach wrote:
> As my financial literacy grows, I am curious about how others are planning
> for the retirement. If you'd like to join in the conversation, please
> share:
>
> 1) How do you save for retirement when working outside of your home
> country?
>
> 2) What percentage of your salary are you able to save towards retirement?
> What would you ideally like to save?
>
> 3) Do you have a teacher pension in your home country (if you have worked
> there) and if so, what will it look like?
>
> 4) Do you have any passive income streams, and what are they?
>
> 5) What are your best tips about finances and retirement?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To answer the above questions, I am using Interactive Brokers and index
> funds to save for retirement while living abroad, and save 30% of net
> monthly income. I'd like to increase this to 40%, and that will take a lot
> of focus to do. I do have a teacher pension in my home country with about a
> decade of service, and I am still investigating what this means. I do rent
> out a house in home country, and one day hope to maybe purchase a second
> property if I plan well. My tip is to remember that it is never too late to
> get into finances, even if you feel you have lost some time!

Currently saving around 30k USD per year, without any additional income streams. I have no intention to alter my lifestyle or switch schools to save more. All of it goes towards my portfolio of globally diversified ETFs, also using Interactive Brokers for that. Nowadays on average that portfolio yields a lot more annually than my teaching income, but I don't have a teacher pension back home so I plan to continue teaching until I hit my financial goal (2.5 million) that allows me to retire the way I want to.
I feel too young to retire anyway, and I still very much enjoy teaching. In 5-10 years when I hit my target I'll have to see if I feel like retiring then, and I have until then to figure out where I actually want to retire (my short list is way too long).

My only tip is too start investing early.
First apply for jobs in undesirable locations that allow you to save and invest, so that compound interest can do its thing. Starting early will mean you can retire early. It's advice that few will take though - most teachers start investing later and have to work for more years than they want.
When you're still young it's too tempting to go for more attractive locations, which are usually so competitive that you will have to settle for a school where savings will be minimal. The realization that saving for retirement is important usually comes to teachers in their late 30s.

@PsyGuy
I assume they mean to be 'overseas' in both scenarios, with 'closer to home' likely meaning a country that is a shorter (and cheaper) flight to their home country.

But @zenteach, please correct me if I'm wrong - it's not 100% clear from your post, although you would have probably written 'back home' instead of 'closer to home' if you meant to move back to your home country. I could be mistaken though. Either way, I would just calculate in which location you would ultimately save more.
I imagine that moving closer to home would would cause you to lose out on more in savings potential than that 10K in travel expenses. Plus you would still spend money on travelling home even if you would move closer, and cost of living might be higher along with the lower salary.

Long flights are indeed a hassle (I know from experience), but it's only once a year (plus return). Also, being in a great region and at an excellent school that you and your children are happy at makes you very, very fortunate, in addition to the economic stability you mentioned. I would count my blessings if I were you, and just accept the hassle of long annual flights. Maybe look into using HomeExchange(.com) to cut down on costs - some homes even include the use of the owner's car.