shadowjack wrote:
> Simplest - 1. Having a Tertiary EAL certificate is meaningless to an IS,
> whether British, American, IB or whatever. You seem to think that teaching
> college age students is the same as teaching MYP or DP students. It is not.
Point.
>
> 2. I would argue that teachers teaching only the DP have a harder time
> moving down than teachers teaching MYP do moving up. DP is way more
> prescribed and structured than MYP and a dedicated DP teacher has to create
> a lot more structure in the classroom if they do MYP rather than having the
> structure provided a la DP.
Interesting.
>
> 3. Having an IB level 1 workshop certificate gets you a certificate.
> However, it is pretty useless from a teaching viewpoint and is more about
> the philosophy of IB at the PYP, MYP, or DP level. It really has nothing to
> do with teaching your specific subject.
I remember Psyguy saying it met the minimum entry requirements for a teaching appointment (in many schools?)
>
> 4. If you want to break into secondary education, find a school, do your
> year through Teach Now, get certified as an English teacher, and then get
> out on the job hustings.
I will find out about Teach Now. I have a friend teaching English at the British International School, and like me, he simply has a CELTA and a few years experience. For some reason English teaching is a separate case.
>
> Just my two halalas,
>
> Shad

This is gold!!

"So yes the IB level 1 CSCI workshop certificate (17 contact hours) is as valid for successfully fulfilling the IB training/PD requirement as an IB T&L certificate"

"You could say do an American Alternative certification program (ACP) for 9 months through a program like Teach Now, which you can do at a foreign IS (globally any IS thats accredited and will hire you) get an American credential from the District of Columbia, and then immediately apply for and receive QTS, a 2 for 1 deal."

I have a distinction in TERTIARY Teaching and Learning Graduate Certificate from RMIT - so yes that is a teaching qualification, although your first sentence was that it's useless. I also looked into getting something at the British International School in Hanoi, but they want QTS, in common with all other British International schools they tell me, hence this whole discussion (how to make that happen). It seems that needing QTS is a serious over-simplification, particularly outside a British IS.

Massive thanks for all your time on this. DE

Just to add, PsyGuy, what I suppose What I'm asking is, from the starting point of what I have now, how can I potentially reach the furthest with the minimum investment (time and money). Last year I finished the wrong Masters (should have done Applied Linguistics) and the wrong Teaching and Learning Certificate (Tertiary instead of secondary). That was careless.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @simplest2
>
> Starting with the hard questions. Honestly thats a really long discussion
> thats a hot topic right now in IE. The issue is whats a regulatory
> authority, whats a license.
> Looking at your question, im going to start with the position that
> "pure British international IB school" is a Cheshire
> Schrodinger's cat. It sounds reasonable, but that it really doesnt exist.
> There are BSs that deploy the IB curriculum across all grade levels, but
> the ethos of the BS is still very British. The IBness is the wizard behind
> the curtain. Its IB to ITs, leadership, staff that work with guidance
> documents, and marking schemes, and timelines, but to the outsiders
> including students the experience is that of a BS. The other side of the
> continuum, is an IB DS that is British in name only and is very much the
> epitome of what the IB envisions an IB DS/IS should look, feel, and be
> experienced by all stake holders. Its a mutually exclusive continuum that
> the more of one you are the less of the other you must be.
FORGIVE THE NON-SHOUTY CAPITALS - CAN YOU CONFIRM I HAVE ALL YOUR ACRONYMS NAILED DOWN:
IT's - INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY STAFF?
DS
IS - INDEPENDENT SCHOOL
>
> The other issue Im going to define so that I can provide you a response is
> that an IB T&L certificate for a strong IB PRACTITIONER in a single
> curriculum classic IB World IS/DS has equivalent marketability as a
> PGCE/QTS for a UKNC.
> Is tier 1 possible yes, practical probability has low utility, for among
> several reasons, but primarily a 1st tier IS usually does not need to make
> such choices, they can and will get everything on their position
> description. The rarely need to resolve such issues.
I THINK YOUR SAYING THAT A T&L CERT, IN A SPECIALISED SUBJECT (E.G. COMPUTER SCIENCE), IS ABOUT THE SAME IN MOST IB SCHOOL PRINCIPALS EYES AS A PGCE/QTS? YET DON'T YOU SAY ELSEWHERE IT'S JUST A GLORIFIED MASTERS?

> Understand that the IB Leadership Certificates were designed to serve a
> sizable portion of educators in leadership, or transitioning to leadership
> that do not have any type of school management/lead/administration
> credential, many have a Masters/M.Ed in education as their sole leadership
> qualification. It is also not an insignificant number of leadership members
> who only have an undergraduate degree and classroom instruction credential.
I THINK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A LEADERSHIP QUALIFICATION HERE AS OPPOSED TO A T&L QUALIFICATION. I HAVE NOT CONSIDERED THIS THOUGH I MAY RESEARCH IT FURTHER - IT MIGHT BE AN EASIER TRANSITION FOR ME
>
>
> IB T&L certificates are usually part of a Masters program that include
> a composition of coursework in international education. Some of them are
> C&I focused some are Ed.Ld focused.
C&L?
ED.LD?
THE CLOSEST IB CERT CERTIFICATE OFFERED TO MY HANOI LOCATION IS KL, FAIRVIEW UNIVERSITY, A TEACHER TRAINING FACILITY ESTABLISHED 2012. THEY DON'T APPEAR TO DO COMPUTER SCIENCE HOWEVER. A CHAIN OF FAIRVIEW SCHOOLS OFFER PLACEMENTS. IB (FEVER) SEEMS TO HAVE GRIPPED THE WORLD!

> IB workshops come in two forms. Online workshops are generally 3-6 weeks
> long and involve some collaboration and assignments/deliverables you submit
> typically each week.
BUT I NEED TO BE WORKING IN A SCHOOL? CATCH 22?
> F2F workshops are typically weekend long conferences, where (at level 1)
> you review what you learned during your EPP/ITT program. They are more for
> drill and kill/chalk and talk DTs who do not have a background in western
> meds/peds.
I THINK YOU SAID A COMPUTER SCIENCE WORKSHOP IS JUST AS USEFUL AS AN IB T&L CERT. BUT DON'T I NEED THE CERT TO GET IN THE DOOR?
>
> I realize your more comfortable with older adolescents, but MYP5 is 16 year
> olds, and there isnt much difference in maturity levels between the ages of
> 16 and 19. A small IS is likely going to need its secondary ITs to provide
> a diverse schedule, which will include lower secondary courses.
IS IT NOT TRUE THAT A DIPLOMA TEACHER CAN ALWAYS MOVE DOWN, BUT AN MYP NOT UP? MYP IS 11-16 YEARS OLD - SO WOULDN'T I GET A MIX ACROSS ALL AGES (NOT JUST MYP5)?
>
> CSCI was moved from Maths to Experimental Science, in IE ICT includes both
> CSCI and Design Technology. while the specific of the CSCI requirements
> have become less specific to certain coding languages its still very much a
> maths intensive ana1ytical course. CSCI isnt very popular for HL exams,
> UNIs either wave the technology literacy requirement or give 1st year Intro
> to CSCI credit for the course, which has low utility when fulfilling
> general education elective courses and major specific per-requisite
> courses in other content exam areas.
I CAN DO DESIGN OR SOMETHING NON-COMPUTER SCIENCE IF THAT'S MORE POPULAR. MY BACKGROUND IS IT FIRST DEGREE, AND GIS MASTERS (MSC)
>
> That is generally true, but thats a range restricted example, 1st tier BSs
> can and do get everything they want. Aside from that issue the assumption
> when citing the rule is that an IT meets the minimum requirements for
> practice as a professional educator, including academic preparation and
> credentialing. IE.. An It asks which is more marketable a Masters degree or
> a classroom appointment in a third tier IS. The experience is far superior.
> The rule is usually quoted when the board is queried on the value of IB or
> AP training, etc.
AP TRAINING?
MY ONLY TEACHING EXPERIENCE IS 3 YEARS RMIT TEACHING ACADEMIC ENGLISH IN VIETNAM, AND 2 YEARS TEACHING (AND EXAMINING) IELTS STUDENTS IN A LANGUAGE SCHOOL - MAYBE A FINGERTIP IN THE DOOR OF A 3RD TIER SCHOOL IN OUTER MONGOLIA?
>
> Everyones system is convoluted on complex, the appearance of simplicity and
> efficiency is only valid when comparing the various systems to one another.
> try explaining EPP/ITT credentialing schemes and to someone not into
> education, and it takes about 5 minutes before their eyes start glossing
> over, doesnt matter the system.
:) - INDEED - ESPECIALLY FOR A IS NOOB. I TAUGHT AT SIS (HANOI) ON A SHORT TERM CONTRACT (6 WEEKS) SO I'VE HAD A TASTE THOUGH
>
> You can gain full QTS and complete your induction year overseas at a BSO.
BSO - BRITISH SCHOOL ORGANISATION? - BUT SURELY A SCHOOL WOULDN'T EMPLOY SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE QTS? I CAN RESEARCH THIS.

> You can do a PGCE/PGDE in a lot of places, these are academic
I THOUGHT THIS WAS THE PASSPORT TO THE QTS? - IF ONE TEACHES IN ENGLAND FOR A YEAR AFTERWARDS AT LEAST.
> qualifications they dont generally lead to QTS.
SO DO I NOT NEED SOME KIND OF SECONDARY TEACHING CERTIFICATE TO START QTS?

I HOPE YOU TAKE THIS REPLY IN GOOD HUMOUR BECAUSE IT IS A LOT LONGER THAN I EXPECTED!
DE

Fabulous reply - much appreciated.

A couple of clarifications:
IBO T&L Certificates
"If you have a classical IBO World School and no other program in the IS, if IB is the only curriculum you teach, than yes an IBO T&L certificate is acceptable"
So if it were a pure British international IB school, then it would be considered as highly as a standard PGCE + QTS. i.e. Tier 1 is ultimately possible?
"Since your goal is so specific you would just as easily meet the PD/certification requirements of the IBO by taking the Computer Science and/or Design level 1 workshops (Introduction)."
Great info - I thought the programme was more a tailored PGCE, rather than a full masters?

DIP vs MYP
good comparison - my Tertiary learning certificate is for 18+ year olds (at Uni) - and teaching older kids my desire so wouldn't consider MYP anyway
When you mention the DIP ICT I assume you're talking about the newly updated (2014) IB Diploma Programme - Sciences: Computer science – Higher level course?

"The rule is no amount of training equals any amount of experience. "
Well, you say that, but a Tier 1 (British) school won't interview you unless you have the right kind of PGCE and QTS!
The American system sounds just as complicated as the UK one, speaking of which, I understand Scotland has different rules regarding QTS - you can obtain it while teaching abroad? (After a PGDE?). How far would this get you at a Tier 1 school?
I've also heard that it's possible to do a PGCE in the UAE at one of the British schools, but my guess is it wouldn't lead to QTS.

Interesting tip about obtaining a non-teaching technical role. This might be able to be wrapped in a teaching English role (I have a CELTA and 5 years academic English teaching experience). Food for thought. A school may like the idea of an IELTS examiner for the kids who will need to do the exam in order to get on to teaching programmes in English teaching countries.

Once again, cheers for your time. DE

Some info there wrldtrvlr123 - cheers.

What I need to find out is the attitude of the international schools towards this tertiary qualification - so I have made one or two inquiries and will keep this thread posted. People with tertiary teaching and learning certificates (Western) may well be hanging out on a different forum - but if your out there - please get in touch. DE

To keep this short I will state my goal, and say where I am now. I've done some searching but haven't found this combination. I've been teaching in Vietnam for 6 years, and have a ICT background prior to this. I'm now 47, but wish to develop a Plan B (or a new Plan A at least). If you have any experience with this then please drop me a line.

Have:
BSc Hons (IT) (1994)
MSc (Geographic Information Systems - also technical - from 2015)
CELTA (basic English teaching to adults certificate)
I'm an IELTS examiner in Hanoi
I teach specialised IELTS classes
Spent 3 years working at RMIT (Australian university) teaching Academic English in Hanoi
I have a Certificate in Tertiary Teaching and Learning - also from RMIT in 2015)

Goal:
To teach computer science as a career teacher at an IB school (in Hanoi)

Questions:
1. I feel the weakest part is that I have a TERTIARY certificate - not a SECONDARY certificate. Is the best solution to organise an IB Teaching and Learning, as described here (http://www.ibo.org/en/professional-deve ... tificates/)? If so, which is the most useful program considering my background - Middle Years or Diploma Programme?
2. If the IB is a bit pointless / expensive, then how about a PGCEi from England? Any others I can do online?
3. I've read that experience is more important than any qualifications. All I have is 6 weeks at Singapore International School in Hanoi so I kind of know what I'm getting myself into. Is it better to try for a role at a similar 3rd tier(?) / 4th Tier(?) school and work my way up, or will I constantly bump into the no PGCE Secondary Cert issue?

Worst case would be to enroll on yet another course (e.g. PGCEi) only to be told I didn't need it after all.

DE