And another copy and paste. It's almost as if you have no original thoughts.

Yes, my material is original (to the forum, not the German documentation), valid, and correct. I even provided documentation and answered clarifying questions rather than copying and pasting the same sentences and stating that I only used trusted sources without providing them.

But hey, feel free to answer some questions on topics about which you claim to know more. Put your money where your mouth is.

Yes, why change from gaslighting and from restating my information without regard to accuracy? No need for you to know anything that way!

Copy and paste, gaslight, rinse, repeat. Get some new material already.

A candidate school already offering a diploma of some kind can structure its courses however it wants. They aren’t offering the IB DP or claiming to do so.

[quote=PsyGuy post_id=64423 time=1720776248 user_id=68047]

ISs (Independent/Private) in Germany, in general, may offer whatever curriculum and programs they wish. DSs (Maintained/Public) must offer a German national program, which may be in addition to other alternative programs.
[/quote]

Restating what I just said yet again—and still telling me I am wrong for saying it!

The pattern continues.

Again, you are arguing with things I never said in the realm of what ifs since the OP has clarified.

However, I do need to offer one correction. An Ersatzschule at the secondary level MUST offer a German Abschluss. They can offer something else (such as the IB MYP or DP) parallel, but they must offer Abi or MSA (or ESA or Fachabi). They cannot just offer AP and IB. An Ergänzungsschule can do so.

And I won’t argue with you on the difference between colloquialisms and abbreviations. It‘s clear you are simply playing games.

Nobody said anything about offering a variation of the DP.

You said a candidate school could offer DIP--and you are playing games here. Your forum history has you using DIP for the IB DP. Here you are trying to say that schools could offer a diploma while being a candidate school--something I already said. I pointed out that these could be similar to the IBDP, but I also said that they would still have to offer a German Abschluss if they are an Ersatzschule (Abi, MSA). I also said (repeatedly) that a candidate school could not offer the IB DP. So you are arguing just to argue.

We have further established that on the IBO website, there are no schools that offer the IB PYP and IB MYP (regardless of whether they offer the DP) that are in Bavaria and are also Ersatzschulen. The OP then clarified that they do offer the IB DP. This after I pointed out that the only schools in Germany that offered both PYP and MYP but not DP were not located in Bavaria. So no, not a candidate school, and since it offers all three and is in Bavaria, it is an Ergänzungsschule.

And now we can add your statements about the IB DP to the list of copy-and-paste statements, along with your repeated misspelling of nonsense. And your use of [sic] would mean that I was in error in my use of the abbreviation DP. Whether used as an abbreviation for the DP or for a generic program offering a diploma, the abbreviation is fine. You just enjoy arguing to argue. I confess that I enjoy watching you stumble along until you are only left with copy-and-paste responses. You never seem to rise to the occasion when asked to answer questions, provide sources for the data you insist you use, etc.

Now a candidate school can and cannot offer the DP? You’re cracked.

A candidate school can write supporting documents and curriculum—they have to, actually—but they cannot claim to offer the DP. They can teach the same content, offer the external assessments internally, and use the same methods and principles. So can any school—what I saidfrom the start. They cannot offer the DP or claim to. Therefore the school in question is not a candidate school and is and Ergänzungsschule.

Given that I used it first (and correctly), I think it’s safe to say I didn’t need your summary of the Wikipedia entry for [sic]. But verbose restatements, sometimes with inaccuracies, are your bread and butter on this forum. Then you like to copy and paste your statements indefinitely in the hopes that it will somehow make them true. It won’t. Or maybe you are trying to avoid actual clarification of the points you are making because this exposes your ignorance. It highlights it, but hey, we can’t expect better from someone whose real knowledge on a subject is lacking.

A candidate school cannot offer DP. Any school or individual teacher can read through the guide for any given subject and use as much or as little of it as they want, so any school can say they use the DP as a basis, but they cannot claim to offer DP.

Incidentally, [sic] is used to denote that the error was in the text, but DP is the actual abbreviation, so it is not a mistake. Cute that you copied even that (incorrectly) from me.

Have you ever worked at a candidate school? Again: They do not offer the DP. They might have the class before authorisation resemble what they will be offering in the coming years (as I indicated), but they do not and cannot claim to offer the DP.

You also keep repeating this sentence about rigid positions, but you don't seem to have any idea of what that means. Repetition doesn't make it true. The position has been clarified. If anyone has further questions, feel free to reach out.

Re: visa--again, you keep repeating the same sentence as if that somehow makes it true. It doesn't. You haven't provided any evidence, links, or details.

re: "Trust IS"--again, repeating the same made up term and rote sentences doesn't make it true.

The constant repetition, mimicry, and inability to understand make it clear you are unhinged.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Alchemeister
>
> I find little persuasive evidence that the IS in this instance would go to
> such extent to maintain a ruse. While its possible they are misrepresenting
> themselves (as @Thames Pirate indicated, and which I concur with, in that
> this isnt likely new for them and they know what the requirements are), why
> in response and cooperation continue such a fabrication? They dont have to
> save face or preserve a relationship when theres nothing offensive or
> insulting in using a generic "were pursuing other candidates".
> Further, if they really were interested in you as an IT in general, keeping
> you in mind and your application on file is not well served by engaging in
> such a subterfuge.
>
> The reality is that Germany is rather rigid on what subject matter, degrees
> must be inscribed. Subject adjacent degrees are rarely acceptable. Whereas
> credentials fulfill a general pro.edu requirement, specific subject matter
> credentials do not substitute for lack of a specific subject matter degree
> qualification.

This whole post flies in the face of everything you just said (and I said first) re: separate processes, school types, etc.

PsyGuy wrote:
> Germany has a rather rigid position on subject adjacent degrees, and
> foreign credentials arent as valuable. Degrees must align specifically with
> the subject appointed to, whereas credentials can be more general and
> generic (the requirement being that they are age appropriate for the
> appointment, but even then are more flexible than what is required for
> degrees). Thus credentials are less valuable.
>

Sort of true for an Ersatzschule. Not at all applicable for an Ergänzungsschule.

> ITs without a right of residency must meet various requirements to obtain a
> visa. This is a separate process from the mutual recognition process of
> pro.edu credentials.

As I have said all along.

The requirements are more involved than requiring only
> a mere contract.

Not really if you are American.

This process is designated to the Federal Foreign Office,
> but delegates these functions to the OS embassies and consulates.


For Americans, the process Incan be done from abroad or upon arrival. No embassies or consulates required.


> Institutions do not set immigration policy, but are subordinate to the
> Foreign Ministry rules and regulations which are more substantial than the
> singular requirement of a contract.


Nobody said institutions set the policy. But no Anerkennung of specific degree is required.
>
> German ISs (Private/Independent) are exempt from much MOE regulation and
> generally may determine what ITs are acceptable to appointment of faculty


As I have said all along.

> as long as these requirements meet the minimum immigration requirements for
> the appropriate visa.

US passport is sufficient (barring background check or other weird circumstances), as I have said all along.

DSs (Public/Maintained)must comply with all rules and
> regulations for the appointment of faculty.

Obviously.


Trust ISs are hybrid of the two
> whereas the IS receives portion of public funding but is required to comply
> with various portions of MOE regulation.

Nope. No such thing as Trust ISs. But if you mean Ersatzschulen, they are not a hybrid, but their own category. As I have said all along.

In regards to professional
> development for faculty appointments there isnt significant differences
> between a Trust IS and a DS.

PD? No. Anerkennung is required.


iB DP schools offer the IB DP. Candidate schools don’t. If a school offers a course identical to the IB DP, there is no way to prevent that. My point was that even then they cannot claim to offer the IB DP. So no, candidate schools don’t offer the DP.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Thames Pirate
>
> Thames Pirate: You only need a contract.
> Germany, the EUR, this particular IS, the LW, the LWs evidence, everyone
> else: No you dont you need to qualify for a visa which is more than
> "only a contract.
>
> Applicants are denied for far more than your listed reasons, they are
> denied (ineligible in this case) for not having a degree in the teaching
> subject.
>
> EU=European Union
> EUR=Europe (as in the land mass encompassing the European continent)
> € or EUR€=Euro Currency
> Yes, I do know what Im talking about.

Again, an Ergänzungsschule is essentially like any private business; they can hire anyone they want. For an American to get a visa, the company needs to say they qualify for the job. That is sufficient. For an Ersatzschule it would still be sufficient for any job that isn’t regulated (TAs, cleaners, various admin). They can even, if they do choose, give you a teaching contract and no lessons. The point is that the visa requirements are in no way tied to your teaching qualifications. I mean, how do you think private companies hire someone for business if they don’t have a teaching degree? Visas are issued if you are an American and have a job (again, barring extenuating circumstances). There are nuances (health insurance, for example, but a job is required to offer it), all basically covered if you have a job.

Visas are federal.

Now, for the actual teaching, the Ersatzschule has to comply with the Bundesland, so the teacher of record has to meet those standards. Not true in an Ergänzungsschule. Those documents, if required (again, in an Ersatzschule) are submitted to the Bundesland, not the federal offices.

So when you said „the EUR“ you meant „the Europe“? Okay . . . .

>
> No, each region is separate, but for this particular issue they arent
> different.
>

Again, check the portal if you don’t believe me. Oh, wait. You don’t speak German.

> Gaslighting is wonderful for you.
>
> Every country has there own language terms for various terms, Germany isnt
> special.
> Trust IS is certainly a thing and a thing in Germany.

PG: Of course each country has its terms in its own language.
Also PG: Here is this English language term that appears precisely nowhere in any German documents that is absolutely used in Germany.

>
> The claims @Thames Pirate about not using or hearing particular terminology
> says more about you than it does Germany.
>

Right, I am the one making up terms. (Before you say that you’re good I agree, I will point out that this is sarcasm). This from the guy who didn’t know the difference between singular and plural and still doesn’t know what the KMK is.

> Youd certainly know next level gaslighting.
>
> There is no theoretical anything. An IS could make an exception for a
> non-host speaking IT for something such as English immersion.
>
> No, youre in TPF wonderland, if thats a world of perpetual twilight, well I
> dont have to live there.
>


We can play the two year old „what if“ and „well, they could“ for extreme hypotheticals. There is probably always the extreme case that is the exception to the rule. But in general, that’s nonsense.

> Yes, applicants must meet the requirements. An IS with flexibility in their
> requirements still requires an applicant to comply within the range of the
> requirements. This is @Thames Pirate not understanding how words work
> again.
>

If I want to hire someone qualified in underwater basket weaving to teach Japanese, I can make that a requirement. I can also decide that no, Tom here seems cool and is only qualified to teach Spanish, but I want to hire him for Japanese. That’s all up to me in my business—and in the context of hiring, Ergänzungsschulen function as businesses. Nobody in any government office cares.

> The policy for Americans and foreigners is to meet the requirements of the
> Federal Foreign Office which for an IT requires more than "only a
> contract".

Again, two offices. One for the visa, one to approve teachers. The latter only applies to Ersatzschulen.

> No, they could not hire a HS graduate.
> No, the IS/DS does not dictae the standard for immigration and visa
> issuance. This is just more TPF non-sense


Still not claiming that, but I do know that nonsense is snowed without a hyphen.

>
> No, Germany is pretty rigid in terms of its requirements.
>
> No, a Candidate IB IS could offer DIP. So its possible there could be a
> Candidate IB IS offering DIP and not be on the list.
>

A candidate school can offer DP structured classes, but they don’t lead to a diploma.


> Yes, including Americans.
>

Have you ever looked at any of the requirements on official sites? Read through the requirements?

> I wrote in my OP "Germany is rather rigid on degrees and credentials
> dont have a lot of value."
> Not a lot of value is no value. See above.
>
> Yes, your gaslighting is certainly at an advance level.
>
> No, The visa requirements are more than "a contract" insurance,
> and minimum remuneration.

Not for Americans. I mean, documents galore and all, but nothing you don’t already have.


>
> Im not in any way convinced you know what irony is, nor does this meet the
> criteria of irony (there isnt a numerous or amusing effect). What your
> looking for is sarcasm, isnt that ironic, dont you think.
>
> Yes, the IS would very likely (I cant imagine them not) walking the
> application through the process.
>

ISs might walk through the visa process by getting the appointments and helping with translations and documents.

The Anerkennung is a totally different process. It‘s ironic that you got it right about the wrong one.

> No, they get you a visa by meeting the requirements which include among
> others having an appropriate degree, an acceptable credential (which may be
> entirely the degree), a contract, etc.
>

The Amt doesn’t require any of that.


> No, this hasnt been established, youre claims are not self authenticating.
> Your confusing established with assumption. This is @Thames Pirate not
> knowing how words work.
>

Repeating ad hominem attacks doesn’t make evidence and independent sourcing disappear.

> No, you need more than just a contract. The contract alone is not
> sufficient. This is TPF non-sense.
>
> The IS could be lying. They are being very responsive and cooperative to
> maintain a fabrication.
> Either the LW needs more than a contract, there are other complicating
> factors that are still more than a contract (such as not having an
> appropriate subject matter degree), or the IS is misrepresenting the reason
> (which I dont buy, why use a fabrication that could, if it was true, be
> wholly disproved).
>

Has the OP tried to get a visa in Germany in some other field? Have you? You don’t need a teaching credential to get a visa.


> Yes, necessarily. Ive known of ITs (many actually) at ISs in Germany and
> elsewhere that teach and taught without a credential. I know of only a few
> rare cases where an IT (including in Germany) was teaching without a
> degree, but in those cases the IT had extensive professional experience in
> the field.
>

Yep—at an Ergänzungsschule this is not a problem.

> Again, regardless of IS or DS if you dont have a right of residency you
> must meet the visa requirements established by the applicable
> ministry/office/department and in Germany this is the Federal Foreign
> office, which delegates these duties to its OS consulates and embassies,
> and again these requirements are more than having a contract and are not
> dictated by an individual organization.
>

You are incredibly thick if you don’t understand that a visa doesn’t require a teaching degree.



> Yes, I agree, its not complex. Germany is relatively rigid in what degrees
> it will accept and the requirements for a visa are more than just a
> contract. Its very simple, but again, you dont know what complex or simple
> mean.
>

Please list (with source) the requirements for an American to get a work permit in Germany.

> Weve had an abundance of evidence, provided by the LW themselves that do
> not support @Thames Pirate, but again you dont know what evidence is,
> because the use of German terminology is not evidence.
>

The OP only shared what the school told them. That isn’t evidence of how visas work.

> I dont think enough about you to generate a feeling or "a thing".
>
> Only data matters.

Data says you enjoy attacking me. As I find letting you show your nature and your ignorance amusing, it isn’t a problem.

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Thames Pirate
>
> Yes, you did, you have stated multiple times "you only need a contract
> and its that simple". Its not that simple you need a visa and in
> Germany (amongst the rest of the EUR) those with contracts do have visas
> denied.

American: I want to work in Germany.
Germany: The school doesn't have to sponsor your visa. Any employer with any job (sufficient hours/pay/insurance) will do.
School: You don't have the right degree for us to sponsor you
PsyGuy: Everyone needs visas and sometimes people get denied!

Okay, sure, people get denied for things like lying on applications, criminal history, etc. It does happen. But we aren't talking about unusual cases here.

(Also, EU is European Union. EUR is Euro, the currency used in much of Europe. But sure, you know what you're talking about.)


>
> No, Bavaria really isnt different. Your perception that Bavaria is
> different, is different. I wouldnt take your word for anything, more so
> that you dont seem to know how words work.


We've established that each Bundesland is different, so yeah, it's different. However, most Bundesländer do have an Anerkennung. Bavaria does not (again, there are complicated workarounds, but as a straightforward procedure, they do not). Bavaria is notorious for this in so many areas. Everyone in Germany knows this.

>
> No, its because they are different. Though I would concede based on prior
> claims your experience with dead horses would be greater than mine. Ive
> been stating for quite sometime that the processes are different, but thats
> your tendency to plagiarize.


Me: The process is different--not just the IS walking it through.
PG: "No, its [sic] because they are different." Add intent to insult and accusation of plagiarism for stating what I have said from the beginning.
Gaslighting is wonderful.

>
> No, its not. Again though your simply daft to the realities. Germany isnt
> special every country has their own language terms for various ISs and DSs.
>

In Germany we use Ersatzschulen and Ergänzungsschulen. Both are "Schulen in freier Trägerschaft" (private schools). However, Ersatzschulen receive federal funding and have to follow ministry standards. They offer recognised German Abschlüsse (Abi, MSA). Therefore I called them semi-private because that's the closest English approximation that doesn't get into the complicated nuance. But NOBODY uses "Trust IS" here in Germany, and I have not really heard it used commonly elsewhere.


> Happy to hear you agree, it makes for less typing.

PsyGuy pretending not to understand how sarcasm works. The gaslighting is next level.


> ISs can suddenly change anything. Yes, they could exactly do that. No an IS
> may require an IT to have a native language competency an English language
> competency or a combination of the two, and ISs do make exceptions.

Yes, let's go down some hypothetical where a teacher convinces an entire school to suddenly start demanding its parents communicate in English, its materials be replaced to switch languages, its internal communications be changed to accommodate one teacher when everyone in Germany speaks English and the German speaker currently teaching maths could presumably teach it in English or a bilingual teacher could be found. I mean, sure, it could happen. We're already in the twilight zone, so why not?

>
> Happy to hear you agree.


PG: Applicants must meet the requirements
TP: Some schools can flex on their own requirements
PG: You agree with me.

Again, next level gaslighting.

>
> No, it doesnt. This is the seminal non-sense of your TPF wonderland.
> Neither ISs nor DSs nor the German MOE set immigration policy in regards to
> obtaining a visa. No an IS canot hire anyone they want.

The policy for immigration says that for Americans, if you have a job offer, the company has decided you are qualified for the position and therefore can be approved for a visa. Since Ergänzungsschulen function in this regard as private companies, they can hire a high school graduate to teach IB Physics if they want. They set the standard. Now, for other countries it's different, but for Americans and a few others this is the case.


> No, Organizations, do not get to set there own immigration policy. This is
> just more TPF non-sense.

Never said they set their own policy. The policy is pretty flexible for certain nationalities, though--including Americans.

>
> Thats not true they could be a Candidate IB IS and offer DIP.
>

Oy. A candidate school does not yet offer the DP (not DIP). But the OP has already stated that they offer the IBDP as well as MYP and PYP, and the only schools on the IBO site that offer all three in Bavaria are all Ergänzungsschulen.

> No, an IS can ot hire anyone they want. Your all you need is a a contract
> is TPF non-sense. Applicants with contracts are denied visas.

Not Americans--unless there is some other reason for denial related to background checks, for example. But in general, no, they aren't. The visas are often issued upon arrival, making German schools skew heavily in favour of EU or favoured nationalities.

>
> Happy to hear you agree with my original post that Germany is rather rigid
> on degrees and credentials dont have a lot of value.

That isn't what I said. You also need a credential. You need both for Anerkennung, so they do have value. You need neither (I mean, you probably do, but not officially) for an Ergänzungsschule. Something I have said all along.

>
> Yes, do see my posts above, but this is hindered by your lack of reading
> fluency and comprehension.

Next. Level.

>
> The visa requirements are more than having a contract.
>

Yes, they include having health insurance (included in contract) and sufficient income (included in contract).

> Its possible they could do this all the time, but you wouldnt know. Then
> again youre probably confusing a Magic 8 Ball with a Crystal Ball.
> My own counsel will I keep on what I would write. It could be true, but
> they have been rather responsiveness on more than the initial explanation
> on the reason, rational, and explanation. Its a superfluous amount of
> effort for a fabrication.


There is irony here. The school actually would walk you through the visa process (no separate procedure), but they don't get you a visa based on your degree. They get you one based on having a contract. Since we have established that this is almost certainly an Ergänzungsschule, we know they could give a contract (again, there are potential sticky widgets with things like percentages that might not affect you personally, but to which you fall victim), which is sufficient for the visa. So there is either a complex factor at play that isn't about any given individual or the school is lying.

>
> Because the "you just need a contract" is TPF non-sense. There
> are a greater degree of requirements for hiring a foreign IT through an OS
> embassy/consulate than there are for a floor cleaner.

Not necessarily. I have known of people who did not have a credential who were teaching at an Ergänzungsschule. Some were in the process of getting credentialed, others were not. They were employed as full teachers, some with permanent contracts, and had visas and even permanent residency. Again, for an Ergänzungsschule you are essentially a company hire; your degree is of little importance to the visa process.

This isn't complex. I have also provided evidence for my claims. It just bothers you that I might know more about some subjects than you do, and regardless of what the subject is, you will gaslight because you really have a thing against me. Sorry you are so insecure, but at least this is entertaining.

Alchemeister wrote:
> @thames pirate
>
> Sorry, they do offer a diploma program too. So goes until 12th. My mistake.
> Also, it’s not Phorms. Yes, in Bavaria.
>
> My guess is they are missing something on their end. Or they’re being told
> wrong info by their visa department people.

Then it is an Ergänzungsschule. There may be super detailed requirements for their overall approval (certain percentage of staff meets X requirement) or they might not have appointments available (because the process can take awhile, schools often make a number of appointments well in advance, but they might not have any left) or they are being dishonest. This wouldn't be their first rodeo, so they are not being told wrong info by visa people; they will know whom they can hire.

PsyGuy wrote:

> Yes more blah, blah and youre wrong.

Ha, so original!
>
> More non-sense TPF. Its not that simple, putting words together is simple,
> going to the moon is simple, all you have to do is go through space.
>
> Yes they are related. You need a visa if you dont have a right to
> residency, you have to live there to work there. Its a concept of proximity
> that I know your lack of vocabulary struggles with.

Yes, you need a visa to work in Germany as an American. I never said otherwise. I said that as an American you could show up, then find a job and a place to rent (in either order), then go to the Amt and get the visa.

>
> Bavaria is not super tricky any more than the rest of Germany is. @Thames
> Pirate may find Bavaria more difficult but thats just @Thames Pirate.

No, Bavaria really is different. It's the outlier in pretty much all respects in Germany. But don't take my word for it; use the official documents or play around in the portal. Post your own evidence. But hey, you'd rather just claim I am wrong.

>
> Yes, walking an application through the process is different than doing it
> yourself, happy to hear you agree with me, finally.

Meh, beating a dead horse to try and explain that there are different processes--as in, different requirements--not just the school taking your application to the Amt for you. But if you are unable to comprehend that, that's okay. I don't need you to believe or understand that. You can keep claiming you know all about it and that I am right or wrong or agreeing with what you said or whatever. I know what I am talking about.

>
> Yes there are two types of edus, ISs and DSs, ISs are independent/private,
> and DSs are maintained/public. In between there are trust ISs/DSs that are
> a hybrid of the two.
>

No. International schools can be Ersatzschulen (Phorms) or Ergänzungsschulen (MIS, BIS). Ersatzschulen are not a hybrid; they are their own category. This "trust" nonsense is completely made up.

> No, not different.

Okay, sure--no difference at all between a school can hire anyone and one that must hire according to German ministry. No difference at all between a school can set its own graduation requirements and one that must administer German standardised exams. No difference at all between a school that can choose which units they teach or how many lessons of each subject a student takes and one where these things are prescribed. No difference at all between a school that get thousands of Euros per student in automatic funding and schools that must get that money from families or elsewhere.


> Yes you would need to sell the IS on immersion if you were teaching in an
> IS that delivered its curriculum in German but had an exception for ESOL
> and would be willing to appoint an IT who only spoke English. It would
> still be a hassle for the IS.

If it's an international school it has a concept of which classes are taught in which language. It isn't going to suddenly decide that kids who speak English because they have science in English should have maths in English because you convinced them of the merits of immersion. Either the school requires the teacher to speak German or it doesn't. And it has absolutely zero bearing on Anerkennung as you initially implied.



> Applicants must meet the requirements of the position the IS/DS has
> established whether they are their own policies or mandated by rule or
> regulation.


Sure, and that includes language. The difference is that an Ergänzungsschule can relax its own hiring requirements because they set them themselves.

>
> No they are using visa correctly. They nee to get the LW a visa.

If the school gives the OP a contract, they can get them a visa. However, an Ersatzschule won't give a contract to a teacher who will not be approved because then they could get stuck paying someone who can't actually teach the classes. An Ergänzungsschule can hire anyone they want from the US (and other specific countries) and get them a visa.

>
> No, Organizations, do not get to set there own immigration policy. This is
> just more TPF non-sense.

It isn't that they are setting policy. It's that the policy is pretty chill regarding Americans.

>
> It could be a Candidate IS/DS and not listed on the IB website yet.
>

That's true, but then it should still have the Abi or MSA listed as this is a requirement from the get go for an Ersatzschule.

>
> @Alchemeister
>
> Yes, its a thing.
>
> If you dont have a right of residency you will need a visa and you must
> meet the visa department for the the applicable ministry (Labor,
> Immigration, etc.). This is separate process from what an MOE requires for
> a credential. This is how it works everywhere, Germany or otherwise.
>

True, but as I said, if it is an Ergänzungsschule, they can simply give you a contract, which gets you the visa--in which case they are less than honest. If they are an Ersatzschule, then they can't have you teach, so they won't give you a contract--regardless of your visa status. If you were married to a German and had a permanent visa, they still wouldn't hire you if you can't get Anerkennung.

> As I wrote previously, Germany has rather rigid requirements what in comes
> to subject adjacent degrees. Germany goes by what is inscribed on the
> degree/qualification scroll. As I wrote previously, foreign credentials
> arent as valuable in Germany. Like most of the IE world outside of the US.
> Credentials generally fill the requirement of pro.edu training and
> competency, and tend to be generic rather than subject specific. In
> general, applicants need to meet the pro.edu requirement, which a
> credential does, regardless of its subject matter (though age range may be
> an issue) and then need to meet subject matter competence, which is often
> accomplished by possession of a specific qualification or range of
> qualifications. Germany has a very limited range of qualifications per
> subject area.
> Credentials with specific subject areas generally dont meet the
> requirements in demonstrating single subject competence. So a credential in
> maths is no more qualifying to teach match than a credential in social
> studies, economics, or, physics is. An IT with a degree qualification in
> math and a credential in business is far more acceptable for a maths
> appointment were it the inverse (a maths appointment with a credential in
> maths, and a degree qualification in business).
>
> Per your example, a business degree usually would not be accepted to meet
> the requirements of a a maths appointment. A degree inscribed in the
> subject of " Business -" for example may be acceptable. But if
> all the degree is inscribed with includes such subject titles as:
> "Business Administration", "General Business",
> "Business", or "Business.. Management/Marketing/Human
> Resources/Supply Chain Management, etc." than its not. Even highly
> maths adjacent fields such as "Economics" are likely to be denied
> (though its happened before).


A long winded way of saying what I have twice said already. ;)


> This is just more TPF nonsense. Getting you the visa is the primary issue.
> The issue of credentials and what pathways are available for mutual
> recognition of credentials is not very relevant at this stage. If its an IS
> (independent/private) then they dont really have to contend with the mutual
> recognition process (though they may choose to), but they still have to get
> you a visa and meet the requirements for that ministry. If its a DS or a
> Trust IS and they do have to be successful in the mutual recognition
> process, than FIRST issue is still being able to get you a visa by meeting
> those requirements and then SECOND to that is investigating the mutual
> recognition pathways.

See my explanations above.

>
> The German terms for IS/DS, etc, all vary by nation and region, Germany
> isnt any different. Youre going down the rabbit hole into @Thames Pirate
> wonderland of TPF non-sense. Of course you need to meet visa requirements,
> if you dont have a right to residency. They are more important than mutual
> recognition of credentials and are the priority everywhere. Germany is no
> different from China, India, France, Italy, UK, AUS, CAN, US, JP, SG, TW,
> HK, the NE or EE, etc. The primary issue is can the IS/DS get you a visa.
> Whether its a State Department, a Foreign Office, or Ministry of
> Immigration/Labor, the MOE doesnt make immigration/visa decisions, thats
> bunk. In TPF wonderland those OS ministries/offices/departments would all
> be subservient to organizations and business because in TPF wonderland
> "all you need is a contract". No national immigration/labor
> policy, regulations, statutes, rules, procedures, standards, oversight,
> even purview would matter because "all you need is a contract".
> Its bunk TPF non-sense. Organizations and businesses dont dictate
> immigration or labor policy.

The visa requirement is to have a job (again, for the OP, who is American). From the Auswärtiges Amt: "Sie können als Fachkraft einen Aufenthaltstitel zur Beschäftigung erhalten, wenn Sie bereits ein konkretes Arbeitsplatzangebot erhalten haben." You can obtain a residence permit for work if you have a firm job offer.

>
> While its very possible they could be lying to you, why would they? They
> arent going to be working with you, they dont have a need to save face,
> they could much more easily say "we are exploring other
> candidates" or "have moved forward with other candidates".
> Why pass on and pass it off as a visa issue, they owe you nothing?

Schools do this all the time, and in any other thread you would be the first to say that it is code for "we don't want you." But I said it, so you have to disagree.

I don't know if they are directly lying; there could be other factors at work (Ergänzungsschulen can hire anyone for any given position, but their approval might have contingencies such as certain percentage EU hires, certain numbers of staff must meet certain requirements). But they could hire you to clean floors and you'd get a visa. So they aren't being 100% straightforward, but they may be giving you the simple answer (again, Ergänzungsschulen could have weird percentages and Ersatzschulen would require Anerkennung).


>
> In Germany the Ministry responsible would be the Federal Foreign Office,
> but they largely delegate the OS process to their embassies and consulates.
> So find out what embassy/consulate service the region you would be applying
> from and send them an email or call them and ask what would be required to
> secure a skilled workers visa as a grade/subject matter edu.

Not for Americans! You can apply for the visa upon arrival (again, the challenge since Covid has been the processing times that might take you past the 90 days). But if you call to ask about a visa, they will refer you to the Anerkennung process of the relevant Bundesland, but as an individual.

>
> Options:
>
> THE GOOD
>
> Relocate to Germany now. Its not all you need is a contract, but by being
> local youd be applying directly to the local ministry office for your visa
> which may have a much easier time if an IS is walking your application
> through the process than through an OS embassy/consulate. In addition youre
> already there and a much more viable candidate. The big fear a leader/IS
> has with a new OS hire is they wont get on the plane.
> As an alternative, an IS may be more amendable to getting your visa changed
> under an appointment you would be qualified for and just assigning you to
> maths.

You can get a job cleaning floors while going through the Anerkennung, for which you would need German and the right subject degrees (sounds like you don't have that). No school is going to walk you through this process. You are on your own.

You can also offer to teach the subject for which your degree qualifies you if you feel comfortable doing that. You might need a subject endorsement added to your US license, but that should be the smaller hurdle. Of course, that is assuming the school has an opening for that subject and wants someone with no experience teaching it. But if they will take you for your degree subject, great! Then it won't matter if it's an Ersatz- or Ergänzungsschule.


>
> THE BAD
>
> You could add a credential in whatever your degree qualification is in and
> pursue appointments in that field.


See above.

>
> THE UGLY
>
> You could do a second major/degree in maths. Its July you could be done by
> this time 2025, with degree in hand if you went full time and only needed
> 30-36 hr. credits. You could potentially get CLEP credit for College Maths,
> Algebra, Pre-Calculus , and Calculus through testing alone, thats 12 hrs,
> spread the rest out over 2 semesters, maybe a summer semester and thats a
> very doable work load, assuming you know what youre doing and your courses
> are the skill-drill type where you just have to do proof sets and exams, of
> which the vast majority of UG/1stD online programs are. It wouldnt help you
> now but next year would be very doable.
> SNHU has an online degree in maths, they also have their own assessment
> program (up to 12 credits), you transfer in your current Bachelors/1st
> degree (90 credits), pass all the credit exams leaving you with 18 credits
> (6 courses) would be just under USD$6K.

Also an option.