As I said, PsyGuy likes to paint the bleakest picture of reality. He's not wrong per se, but he does tend to look at the negatives.

Yes, elementary and social studies are saturated markets. Yes, kids are a deterrent comparatively. However, you are just starting out and already so far ahead of most--for better or worse--which allows you to aim higher than the person fresh out of school looking for their first teaching job.

You do not sound like tourist teachers to me, just teachers who have some standards when it comes to what you expect out of a school. Rest assured that you CAN find good jobs. Many of us have done so. Be aware, though, that PsyGuy read "good school" and heard that you were after a fat relocation package, living with a housekeeper, or a swanky flat in central London. If that's what you're after, he's right. However, I heard wanting a not-for-profit, truly international school with reasonable expectations placed on staff (no weekly submission of lessons, professional support, no spoiled-rich-family mentality). If that's what you want, you can find it. This is especially true if you are truly flexible on location. There are good schools in more difficult locations that will hire you with your resume if they have the right openings. Places like West Africa or Bangladesh come to mind. There are also schools that are not considered first tier simply because they are new and/or small. They may be a bit more of a risk because it's harder to determine if they are good or because they may have inevitable growing pains, but they might suit your purposes.

I suggested Search because they have the bigger database than ISS, and with a multi-year membership I don't expect it to be a waste. Yes, peak recruiting has passed for the year (the last major fair is going on now, and it really isn't as big as the two prior fairs), but there is still recruiting going on year round. I find that ISS is geographically limited, too. Just a personal preference. However, the advice for TIE, etc. is not bad at all. Just be aware that the better agencies have higher standards as to what schools they will rep, so you will need to do your own research (well, do that regardless of agency, as there are plenty of less-than-stellar schools with each).

You will see we both said IB experience will help, as will being more broadly certified AND experienced. Yes, ASPs (after school programs) have limited marketability, but they do want to see them, and I gave you a list of those with more marketability. We were actually just asked what types of clubs or activities we COULD offer that the school didn't already have, and it was valuable to talk about coaching Battle of the Books or running chess or gaming clubs. The school was looking to increase its options/offerings as well as its pastoral program, so knowing teachers aren't out the door at the end of the school day is always helpful, if not marketable per se.

No, you likely won't end up at the elite schools (AS London, WAB, etc.), but you never know, and it sounds like you aren't aiming for elite, but for decent. In PG's world, there are the elites, and then there's everyone else. While he SAYS there are tier 1 and 2 schools, he proceeds to talk as if they do not exist in cases like this. Besides, as I said, you never know. We scored an interview with an elite European school at our very first job fair with neither international nor IB/AP experience, and while ultimately we did not get the job (there was only one, and hubby was honestly not quite a good fit in terms of subject area), he was impressed with us all the same and thought that if there had been two jobs, he would have taken a chance on us. This is where PG will come back and say only offers or contracts matter--and he's right. But my point is that we were at our first job fair, not even really expecting an interview and not planning to walk away with jobs BECAUSE we were picky. We gained a lot of experience at that fair and from those interviews, and while we walked away jobless (as expected and almost planned!), we got jobs everyone told us we'd never get as a first international school at the next fair.

So be realistic, and listen to the advice PG offers--he DOES know a thing or two--but remember that he is also a bit of a Debbie Downer, a bit disparaging to all in order to dash hopes in the name of reality, and sometimes a bit of a know-it-all. He knows a lot, to be sure (especially when it comes to things like certifications), and can be a useful poster, but take it with a grain of salt, don't lose heart, and happy hunting!

Oh, we had that--we knew maximum contact hours as well as average (well below max). Hubby was scheduled over hours, and while he was paid for the overtime, it was miserable. One other new teacher had the same. Meanwhile two teachers had HALF of what hubby had. When he asked about it, he was told that was simply how the schedule had worked out. The reality was that it was the incompetence of the scheduler and an unwillingness to acknowledge the administrative failures by the new director (not the one who had hired us). The old guy was, while far from perfect, not prone to treating people as commodities. The new guy was. He threw the school into a downward spiral from which it has not recovered despite the fact that he's been gone for a few years.

Even schools with great resources, good enrollment (was expanding), OSH package can be awful if you are overworked. That was our situation. School looked great on paper--many at the fair envied us. However, they had a reputation for overworking some new hires while underworking others (not due to favoritism, but simply luck of the draw because they couldn't be bothered to pay attention to scheduling). They had admin problems out the wazoo (three principals in three years--we were hired by the first, so no red flags before we came--and other administrative disasters). Second tier school by all accounts, but so mismanaged it felt like a third tier in many ways.

Sometimes it's hard to predict these issues, especially if you're newer and not as good at reading between the lines. Also, the director who hired us was on his way out, so it was harder to predict because the new guy brought so much baggage. When we were hired we were beyond overjoyed at getting what we thought was such a good school in a city we thought we'd be crazy to reject. We loved the city, the pay was adequate (that was the big reason we said it was a Tier 2 school), the facilities modern and top notch, truly international--yet a complete disaster. We were far happier coming back home to a productive local school and leaving the awesome city.

Know what compromises you are willing to make to live in that city you'd be crazy to reject!

Oh, I agree that location is more important, but if the job is too terrible, then it doesn't matter where you are. If you are so overworked you only ever see your classroom and cannot enjoy the location, you may as well not be there. That's what happened to us. If you cannot afford even the smallest local pleasures, what's the point? Therefore BOTH must be good. But as no school is perfect and one can have a less than perfect job anywhere, location is more important. After all, isn't that the point of teaching internationally?

I stand by my point that the whole package must fit.

Well, this is going to sound generic, but here we go!

1) Sign up with an agency like Search. That gives you access to their databases, which will help tremendously as you do your research on which schools you like. You can check accreditations, get a vague idea of packages (keeping in mind that schools may not be entirely accurate when reporting), check the student body (is it truly international or mostly host country?), compare schools across a country or region (for example, what is a "good" package for Thailand or do all schools in a country have a threshold number of host nation students because of some random statute?), etc. It gives you a place to consolidate your documents and references, and it allows schools to see you easily.

2) Cast a wide net. Aim high, but don't be surprised if you don't hear back, particularly from top schools. Many of them will reject you outright if you don't have British/IB curriculum or international experience, but you never know and it can't hurt to put your name out there. If the school meets what you want, go ahead and apply for any vacancies or even ask to be put into their applicant pool. But also aim for more realistic schools, knowing the top schools are likely to be wary.

3) Be persistent, positive, patient, precise, and realistic. Don't be easily discouraged by frequent rejections, and don't take any of it personally (as PsyGuy, our negative nancy but also very realistic poster likes to say, some schools get 1000 applications for each vacancy). It's not personal, and a rejection now doesn't mean a rejection later, when you have experience with IB or living abroad or whatever. There are TONS of schools who will see your profile who will contact you; don't be afraid to turn them down if they are not what you want (but of course be polite and take the time to write them back). Recognize that it may take a year or so two if you are willing to wait for the right job, but don't hold out hope that IS Bangkok is going to suddenly decide it wants you without IB experience. Just keep sending out applications. Make sure to follow directions to the letter--it's just one way schools weed out applicants.

4) Get more experience/certification. You are already in good shape here, but you can do more. Have hubby get IB training and become an IB grader if there is nowhere to get experience locally (the AP is huge, but social studies is a competitive area). If he can get some leadership experience to go with his degree, great! For you, make sure you have experience in as many fields as possible as well. Get PYP and MYP certified, get experience in lacking areas (if you've only ever taught elementary, teach MS science, for example). If you can add a certification in something else (MS math maybe, or some high school?), all the better. Being flexible is a wonderful asset. Heck, become an IB grader yourself if you can!

5) Get more "extras"--marketable extracurriculars look great on a resume. Model UN is a big one, but student government, coaching (especially sports popular on the IS circuit),and drama/music are also good. Clubs are less of a thing because everybody can run a chess club or a crafts circle. Leadership roles such as curriculum coordination or technology implementation are also helpful.

6) If a good school is important, be cautious of for profit models. There are some out there better than others, but be cautious. That doesn't mean all for-profits are fine, either--but the better schools are not for profit.

As a teaching couple with what sounds like a pretty good entry level resume, you'll find something suitable. Good luck!

If that's true (and it wouldn't surprise me), shouldn't they make their policy known to the candidates? It would be more effective that way.

reisgio wrote:
> Ugh..I think the OP wanted us to actually name a city and/or school. Congrats TP, but
> really, spare us the self-congratulatory nonsense.

My point was that it is about not just the job and not just the city, but the combination. It's also about fit--as I said, we would not be happy even at the best school ever if it's in Beijing, and we would not be happy in any city if the job/school aren't good. I am not going to identify myself in the way you ask, @joanveronica, but I am going to say it's not unreasonable to be excited about landing one's dream job. It may or may not be someone else's dream job, but it is ours, and we are happy--it was the job we would have been crazy to reject.

That said, there are a bunch of cities we would jump on if the job is good--London, Copenhagen, Hamburg, Amsterdam, the Hague, Zurich, other Swiss cities depending on job, Vienna, Prague, maybe Brussels, Paris, Berlin, Munich, Warsaw, Madrid, Barcelona, Luxembourg, Budapest, Nice, Monaco (if we could afford it), Liechtenstein, maybe Frankfurt (not in love with the city, but could be convinced because of the school), Helsinki, possibly Dusseldorf. The job we got is in one of those places, and it was our first choice of those places.

We also talked seriously about Yangon, Panama, Costa Rica, Lilongwe, Harare, Gaborone, Lusaka, Ulaanbaatar, Tbilisi, most of Scandinavia, Hanoi, Singapore, Japan (most cities), and Bangkok, smaller European cities such as Krakow or Brno or Aberdeen. We would need to do more research on the schools and/or cities before deciding.

There are, of course, tons of factors, and they all have to fit to be the one you'd be crazy to reject. We took a job in one of the cities on my top list once and it was a disaster because of the school. We obviously know the reputations of schools and while people say we'd be crazy to turn down the school, we know we'd be miserable in Beijing. Therefore my answer stands--it ALL has to fit.

@reisgio, good luck in getting your own mystery city. Prague is also a wonderful choice.

The job we just took! The city was at the top of our list and the school was everything we want in a school. The package is great, the direction of the school is fantastic, the priorities of the admin (as shown in our research as well as in the questions we were asked in the interview) are in line with our values, and the jobs fit not just our certifications, but our interests. In other words, EVERYTHING has to fit.

Some people value cities over schools. For example, some people want to live and work in London and will work just about anywhere to do it. Others prefer straight schools and will put up with living in Bangladesh simply because they love the school. Some are mercenary and would not turn down a job with high savings potential. So the better question is what elements are most important to you.

For us it was all of the above--the combination has to be right. Having worked in a fantastic city in a school that has great facilities, is truly international, etc. but had crummy leadership, I can say with certainty that having a good school is more important than its location to us, but location still needs to be something we'd enjoy. Hubby would be miserable in Beijing, so even WAB wouldn't work for us. However, the job still has to be good wherever we end up.

I guess since I never asked about it and was never notified, nor was I made aware of any policies prohibiting postings, it can't be much of a policy. I can see the agency not wanting to look bad and discouraging disparaging remarks about the fairs or the schools, but honestly, to me most fair diaries are so vague that they don't offer much insight at all. I also don't find most negative comments--critiques such as the locations of the mail folders or the level of wifi--that off-putting. As long as they aren't really disparaging about the company, what's the problem? People have said far worse about individual schools, both on here and elsewhere, than anything I have ever read on a fair diary, as those are generally vague.

I guess I just don't understand why this is a thing and how people are supposed to know it's a thing if they aren't told.

One of my good friends is Polish, and she taught at two different IS in non-Polish countries, and she now teaches at a very posh, very British private school in London. So if her English is good (and I'd imagine living in the UK it would have to be), then that is not at all a knock on her--or you, for that matter.

Sounds like you have some good options and enough information that you can at least start looking at the best options. Let us know if we can help!

But if candidates are not notified of the policy, how strict can it be?

The previous poster is not wrong, although perhaps a bit bleak.

Certainly not being a native English speaker is a negative. So is having a Ph.D. as some directors are threatened by people who are or might appear to be smarter than they are. However, the biggest hurdle is in fact the lack of a teaching qualification.

Most jobs require a certification and a minimum of two years' experience. At least the decent jobs. That said, there are third rate schools in Europe just as there are in the ME. You can get your foot in the door there, getting started on those two years while you are working on your certification. Another option is that you could teach in a national system. Some countries allow that without a certification (Germany, for example, has a program for that). So there are options. Then you will want to gain curriculum experience. The best schools teach the British, American, or IB curriculum. Examples in Europe would be AS London, AS Paris, IS Frankfurt, IS Brussels, IS Amsterdam, Copenhagen IS, IS Hamburg, Zurich IS, Munich IS, IS Hague, AS Warsaw, AIS Bucharest, AIS Budapest, and maybe some of the schools in Berlin. So you will want to get experience teaching those things ASAP. Figure a few years to get experience in those, preferably across subjects. Getting certification (and ideally certification) in multiple subjects--especially higher level math or physics--will help as well. Those positions are notoriously harder to fill.

If, after a few years of putting up with the BS in a for profit school, for example, you still want to do this, then you will have a decent chance as a teaching couple with experience, advanced degrees, curriculum experience, and cross certification. If you can pick up leadership (beyond head of department--think curriculum coordination, IB coordination, etc.) or desirable extracurriculars (not average after school program stuff, but Model UN or coaching a popular sport such as football (soccer) or basketball), all the better.

Certifications from the US, UK, and Canada would be best for what you are wanting. It is, however, the experience that makes you a better teacher, so just get the credential and be done with it as painlessly as possible.

For your lady, if she can cross certify in her native language, humanities/social studies, or something like drama (a bit harder to fill than standard English jobs), then all the better. She, too, would need to get curriculum experience, etc.

Singapore is a tough market. You are more likely to find something to suit your needs in China/HK. There are places that will hire you now, so you can work on getting that experience and working your way up.



Now here is the silver lining (PsyGuy and others hate this part--they are brutally realistic and sometimes overly pessimistic and negative): There are exceptions everywhere. Aim high even as you stay realistic. We were told we could never go to Western Europe with no IB or AP and no international experience, but guess where our first international posting was? You can get into any place with confidence and a clipboard. In other words, you are obviously intelligent. I would imagine your partner is, as well. Aim high, knowing you might be disappointed and that you might have to do the "for profit" route. Obviously the top schools aren't going to look at you, but you might end up at a middle of the road school rather than the very bottom right out of the gate, which would allow you to gain that curriculum experience, etc. more easily and comfortably. Don't despair, be patient and meticulous, and you can get where you want to be. Oh, and get the certification ASAP! Good luck!

It varies widely. Some want one. Some want three plus a Skype with someone who wasn't at the fair. Some will hire with only a phone or Skype interview.

It really depends on what they want, how closely you match it on paper, how many people they have in mind for the job, etc. There is no simple answer here, and it doesn't necessarily vary by the quality of the school, either, though I will say that it is not uncommon for top schools to use the fairs as a chance for the face to face when they have someone in mind, so there is only one interview. Beyond that, though, there is no rule of thumb.

Psyguy is right. That's why you HAVE to have a game plan and be willing to do your research. We had three schools ask us to pre-interview. One was our dream school, one was a school we hadn't considered but upon doing some research (friend ran PD there and spent considerable time there, checked them out here on ISR and of course their website, etc.) decided they were worth at least considering and talking to, and one we rejected outright. We knew we would not accept an offer from the second before interviews, we knew we would take an offer from dream school on the spot, and we knew nothing school 3 said could convince us.

So plan ahead, research the school, and keep your wits about you. Good luck!

Yes, normal. Yes, you may get an offer. Make sure you know what you will say if you get the offer, keeping in mind that you still have so much fair ahead of you. Don't get caught up in the excitement. We had a before-the-fair offer, and they even asked us not to talk to the other schools and to come to their school. It was our top choice and we already knew we would take a job if offered, so it was an easy call--especially since the other interview we had scheduled was one we were not really interested in but thought we could take the interview to check it out. Even if our other top choices had also had interviews scheduled, we probably would have taken the offer. However, if we weren't so sure, we might have asked for 24 hours to consider. So have a game plan, and if possible, schedule your interviews in descending order of interest.