Psyguy, I am actually quite happy to acknowledge what you say about QTS/NQT. We both have valid points and are perhaps right in our own ways based on our own different experiences.

Can you accept that I am right in some of my opinions I wonder and therefore shouldn't be posting as though you know everything? Again this is my real point, there is often more than one correct answer and many different views, not everything in life is simply black and white IMHO.

By acknowledging and perhaps re-evaluating your own ideas you gain credibility, by shouting people down and not acknowledging/refusing to adjust you lose it. This is especially so when there are other teachers out there who have been through the PGCE/QTS/NQT process (as I have) and feel on solid ground.

Why not take a look here at this lively debate on the tes forum about NQT/QTS, I think you'll find it confirms everything I've said and there are far more contributers and moderation going on there:

http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/522 ... ageIndex=1

NQT is a top up year above and beyond QTS

"my understanding is that you HAVE QTS as soon as you complete your studies. The 'induction' or probationary year as it used to be called is an extra on top of QTS."

"I know you have to teach for a year before gaining your QTS"
"No, that's induction. You have to teach for a year before you pass induction - you already have to have QTS at the start of your induction (aka NQT year)."

Nevertheless Psyguy, I enjoy your contributions to this site, but not trust. As others have said, PGCE's are practical hands on courses. 3x8 week placements for me.

So, you agree with me now that you were wrong about PGCE's being mainly academic qualifications? Superb. Next...

From your own trusted link:
"While NQTs are encouraged to start their induction as soon as possible [u][b]after gaining qualified teacher status (QTS), [/b][/u]there is no set time limit for starting or completing an induction period."

Notice that is [u]after [/u]gaining qualified teacher status, to me that confirms that you have it already even before you do an induction year!!!

"If i have a drivers license that doesnt let me drive when and where I want (as long as its not some pathological example like driving a tank to Buckingham Palace), then its not much of a drivers license."

You can apply for pretty much any teaching job where and when you want once you have your QTS from your PGCE. You could:

1. Work for a government school. They would then put you through their probationary year/NQT.

2. Work for an independent school/international school. They may well then have their own form of probatiobary period and ongoing training.

3. FE, academies, free schools, etc.. same again.

Completing an induction year [u]does not open up any extra options to you [/u]as a teacher. It does show you have achieved a certain level of competence for an extended period of time, but working for an independent school and gaining good references and completing their probation would do a similar thing.

Therefore, to my mind, claiming that you are not a qualified teacher and don't have QTS until you complete a government induction year makes no sense.

There are so many routes into teaching, and so many career paths within it, that using the state school induction year to say whether someone has QTS or not whilst being a very easy method, is simply not accurate.

You have QTS once you complete your PGCE and after that it is up to you what you do with it. Work for a state school if you want, work for an independent school, go international, you hold QTS there is nothing stopping you pursuing any of those routes.IMHO.

"You can not teach in a regulated school (public/municipal) school in the UK until you successfully complete induction."

Of course you can, because state schools automatically enter you onto the induction year so you ARE free to apply to teach anywhere, once you have the QTS from your PGCE.

"Really simple, the QTS obtained after your PGCE doesnt "qualify" you to do anything in the public school system except complete induction. Until then your an NQT, after successful induction and the NQT is removed all that remains is your QTS, and thats whats referred to as having QTS. "

Wrong, that is what YOU refer to as having QTS. There are other people in this world and you cannot speak for all of them.

I'm not overly bothered by the debate regarding QTS/NQT etc.. what I am bothered about is you stating your opinions as facts. This has the potential to mislead people which is not fair.

[quote]In common usage QTS refers to a teacher that has completed Induction, and NQT refers to a teacher who has not successfully completed.[/quote]

Not in any of the UK schools or international schools I've worked in or currently work at Psyguy. Everyone has seemed well aware that you get QTS at the end of your PGCE (you even get a certificate saying congratulations on gaining QTS after finishing your pgce, is that clear enough for you?).

There are a a LOT of factual errors in your postings. I don't have time to correct them all, it would take too long. I simply urge others to be very wary of believing anything this person types. Check it all out for yourself from legitimate sources!!!

The tes forum is much better for getting accurate information, not unmoderated hearsay from out of touch people like this.

[quote]a traditional PGCE is almost exclusively academic work[/quote]
More absolute nonsense!

...at least pgrass knows the score.