Re: Reply
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:02 pm
Again, PG, this makes no sense and does not match reality. Schools DO skip the ISS portion of the super fairs. I am not saying schools necessarily need to actively search for candidates in databases, but they are getting quality applicants through SA. If they want to meet them F2F, they do it at the SA fairs. They may very well get good applicants from ISS, but they aren't meeting them at ISS fairs. So if I am doing the legwork of contacting the schools and they hire from either database, ISS holds no advantage over SA. However, if that school wants to meet me, I as a candidate would need to either travel to the school (neither company has an edge) or go to a fair the school is attending (giving SA the edge). So as a candidate contacting schools, yes, SA gives me the edge.
Meanwhile you claim schools don't skip the super fairs. Well, why did only two European schools attend the ISS BKK fair when far more attended SA BKK? They DO skip ISS BKK, then attend SA BKK, CIS LON, and SA LON. Why would they do that if they prefer or heavily hire through ISS? The answer is they don't. They either hire through other agencies or no agency at all. So when making a decision of which agency of the two to use, I want the ones schools are using.
You also contradict yourself. If schools aren't hiring through the database ("don't have to go hunting through the database") and they aren't hiring through fairs ("your definition of access is fairs, the data base doesnt go away because you define access as fairs"), why on earth would I sign up with ISS?
No, fairs are not the sole definition of access, but they still represent a vital F2F access point. If I am doing the school-by-school application, ISS offers no advantage over SA (again, if anything their smaller database is a disadvantage). So as a candidate, I want maximum access. SA offers the better database (maximizing my access) and fair attendance (again, maximizing my access). Schools, meanwhile, are sifting through the candidates that come to them, either through direct application (meaning either company or none at all is fine) or through F2F contact (fairs--meaning SA is the better option).
You keep saying ISS is the more elite and selective database, but you offer no evidence of this. ISS requires only a teaching license and a Bachelors to be listed. That is not exactly a highly selective process and is the same minimum as with SA. As for schools, again, what is the screening process? There is a lot of junk represented by ISS, too. In fact, you said so yourself. So the only evidence you have offered in support of your claim that ISS is more selective is that you think they are more elite. I sincerely hope you require your students to support their points with a bit more evidence and - than that.
You claim that ISS treats its "special snowflakes" better--well, great. Does that mean ISS personally contacts those top schools and vouches for you based solely on the paperwork you submit to them? Will they arrange a F2F meeting for you? If not, why use them? What help do they offer their snowflakes that they don't offer the peons? And if you are one of their snowflakes, do you really need the agency's help getting that job? So tell me again why that means ISS is the better agency for finding a job in Europe? After all, that was the point of discussion. How precisely is ISS more specialized, either for schools or for candidates?
Yes, it is foolish to take the position of a recruiter if all evidence points in a different direction. It is not foolish if the evidence supports the recruiter's statement. When a recruiter tells me (again, when just chatting at the hotel in our shared language and his school is not on my list) that his school will no longer be recruiting through ISS--and then they stop attending ISS events they used to attend--his actions match his statements and the other evidence I have.
You say I assume lesser known ISs are good--well, maybe, maybe not. Sometimes they are just new. Sometimes reputations are based on the past and the school has changed (which can happen in either direction--a school can rest on its laurels or a school can get new leadership to undo the mess that it was). Meanwhile you forget that there are TONS of teachers happy at schools you personally consider lesser quality because they are able to work in professionally challenging and dynamic classrooms, have access to PD, and most importantly, do good work with kids. If reputation of a school eclipses the actual day-to-day grind with kids in your eyes, well, you may need to reconsider your profession.
Furthermore, I am still baffled by your concept of tiered schools. We all know there are a few "elites," tier 1 schools (top notch), tier 2 schools (still really good), and tier three (in which there are the "floaters" who are close to tier 2 and the "bottom of the barrel" types). You continually say "top schools" and "bottom schools" and refer only to a few elites. Is there actually a tier 1 or 2 in your book? Since we are talking about European schools in particular and you are apparently in Europe, perhaps you can educate us a bit. Which schools are hiring through ISS? Please feel free to include the sources of your information. I am particularly interested in schools in the countries that didn't attend fairs--Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or the UK, for example.
You may not be interested in convincing me, but at least I offered multiple sources for my claim. I have offered a recruiter, a listing of schools attending fairs, and the minimum requirements of the two companies in question for candidates. Yes, the minimum requirements are evidence that both companies rep the good and the bad. I can also offer that I have met people at fairs that make me wonder how they ever got teaching licenses (both ISS and SA). As neither of us can go beyond that in terms of assessing candidates, we must accept that based on the minimums, there are bound to be good and bad teachers at both agencies. I could make equal lists of good and bad schools for each agency (which would heavily overlap, BTW). It is not just my perception.
So how is ISS better for getting a job in the EU (for top and/or bottom)? Tell me specifically how a teacher signed up with them has an edge in getting a job in the EU--the step-by-step process.
As to what you were saying to Walter, you again contradict yourself. You say recruiters prefer the more selective candidate pool, then you say they prefer the bigger fairs. So which is it? Tell us the process recruiters use so that we can all make the best decisions based on our own resumes and which schools we want (again, specific to EU for this thread). Explain why a good EU school would attend two or three fairs but not ISS BKK--yet still look first at an ISS candidate.
You say superstar ITs don't need to chase anyone, but the reality is that even the best teachers still have to apply, interview, and make decisions. No, the elite schools don't need to hunt for quality applicants, but they do still need to snap up the best teachers before another school does. You make it sound like the best teachers and schools magically find each other with no effort on anyone's part, but again, this isn't reality. Even the best schools use the fairs (even if they do most of their heavy lifting before the signup session), and even the best teachers use the fairs (depending on what they want and when and where jobs are available--and even if they do all their interviews before the signups).
Walter does not sound like an admin, but like someone with a personal issue with you. You do not sound like an admin, but like a teacher with an elitism complex.
> I wasnt accepted into ISS when I first started out in IE.
Maybe this contributes to your mistaken belief that they are somehow more selective? Funny, I was accepted when I first started out in IE. I switched to SA because they were the better option, and I have never regretted that.
PsyGuy, would it kill you to admit you are wrong? Or at least provide some support for your argument?
Meanwhile you claim schools don't skip the super fairs. Well, why did only two European schools attend the ISS BKK fair when far more attended SA BKK? They DO skip ISS BKK, then attend SA BKK, CIS LON, and SA LON. Why would they do that if they prefer or heavily hire through ISS? The answer is they don't. They either hire through other agencies or no agency at all. So when making a decision of which agency of the two to use, I want the ones schools are using.
You also contradict yourself. If schools aren't hiring through the database ("don't have to go hunting through the database") and they aren't hiring through fairs ("your definition of access is fairs, the data base doesnt go away because you define access as fairs"), why on earth would I sign up with ISS?
No, fairs are not the sole definition of access, but they still represent a vital F2F access point. If I am doing the school-by-school application, ISS offers no advantage over SA (again, if anything their smaller database is a disadvantage). So as a candidate, I want maximum access. SA offers the better database (maximizing my access) and fair attendance (again, maximizing my access). Schools, meanwhile, are sifting through the candidates that come to them, either through direct application (meaning either company or none at all is fine) or through F2F contact (fairs--meaning SA is the better option).
You keep saying ISS is the more elite and selective database, but you offer no evidence of this. ISS requires only a teaching license and a Bachelors to be listed. That is not exactly a highly selective process and is the same minimum as with SA. As for schools, again, what is the screening process? There is a lot of junk represented by ISS, too. In fact, you said so yourself. So the only evidence you have offered in support of your claim that ISS is more selective is that you think they are more elite. I sincerely hope you require your students to support their points with a bit more evidence and - than that.
You claim that ISS treats its "special snowflakes" better--well, great. Does that mean ISS personally contacts those top schools and vouches for you based solely on the paperwork you submit to them? Will they arrange a F2F meeting for you? If not, why use them? What help do they offer their snowflakes that they don't offer the peons? And if you are one of their snowflakes, do you really need the agency's help getting that job? So tell me again why that means ISS is the better agency for finding a job in Europe? After all, that was the point of discussion. How precisely is ISS more specialized, either for schools or for candidates?
Yes, it is foolish to take the position of a recruiter if all evidence points in a different direction. It is not foolish if the evidence supports the recruiter's statement. When a recruiter tells me (again, when just chatting at the hotel in our shared language and his school is not on my list) that his school will no longer be recruiting through ISS--and then they stop attending ISS events they used to attend--his actions match his statements and the other evidence I have.
You say I assume lesser known ISs are good--well, maybe, maybe not. Sometimes they are just new. Sometimes reputations are based on the past and the school has changed (which can happen in either direction--a school can rest on its laurels or a school can get new leadership to undo the mess that it was). Meanwhile you forget that there are TONS of teachers happy at schools you personally consider lesser quality because they are able to work in professionally challenging and dynamic classrooms, have access to PD, and most importantly, do good work with kids. If reputation of a school eclipses the actual day-to-day grind with kids in your eyes, well, you may need to reconsider your profession.
Furthermore, I am still baffled by your concept of tiered schools. We all know there are a few "elites," tier 1 schools (top notch), tier 2 schools (still really good), and tier three (in which there are the "floaters" who are close to tier 2 and the "bottom of the barrel" types). You continually say "top schools" and "bottom schools" and refer only to a few elites. Is there actually a tier 1 or 2 in your book? Since we are talking about European schools in particular and you are apparently in Europe, perhaps you can educate us a bit. Which schools are hiring through ISS? Please feel free to include the sources of your information. I am particularly interested in schools in the countries that didn't attend fairs--Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or the UK, for example.
You may not be interested in convincing me, but at least I offered multiple sources for my claim. I have offered a recruiter, a listing of schools attending fairs, and the minimum requirements of the two companies in question for candidates. Yes, the minimum requirements are evidence that both companies rep the good and the bad. I can also offer that I have met people at fairs that make me wonder how they ever got teaching licenses (both ISS and SA). As neither of us can go beyond that in terms of assessing candidates, we must accept that based on the minimums, there are bound to be good and bad teachers at both agencies. I could make equal lists of good and bad schools for each agency (which would heavily overlap, BTW). It is not just my perception.
So how is ISS better for getting a job in the EU (for top and/or bottom)? Tell me specifically how a teacher signed up with them has an edge in getting a job in the EU--the step-by-step process.
As to what you were saying to Walter, you again contradict yourself. You say recruiters prefer the more selective candidate pool, then you say they prefer the bigger fairs. So which is it? Tell us the process recruiters use so that we can all make the best decisions based on our own resumes and which schools we want (again, specific to EU for this thread). Explain why a good EU school would attend two or three fairs but not ISS BKK--yet still look first at an ISS candidate.
You say superstar ITs don't need to chase anyone, but the reality is that even the best teachers still have to apply, interview, and make decisions. No, the elite schools don't need to hunt for quality applicants, but they do still need to snap up the best teachers before another school does. You make it sound like the best teachers and schools magically find each other with no effort on anyone's part, but again, this isn't reality. Even the best schools use the fairs (even if they do most of their heavy lifting before the signup session), and even the best teachers use the fairs (depending on what they want and when and where jobs are available--and even if they do all their interviews before the signups).
Walter does not sound like an admin, but like someone with a personal issue with you. You do not sound like an admin, but like a teacher with an elitism complex.
> I wasnt accepted into ISS when I first started out in IE.
Maybe this contributes to your mistaken belief that they are somehow more selective? Funny, I was accepted when I first started out in IE. I switched to SA because they were the better option, and I have never regretted that.
PsyGuy, would it kill you to admit you are wrong? Or at least provide some support for your argument?