ISS versus Search

Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Reply

Post by Thames Pirate »

Again, PG, this makes no sense and does not match reality. Schools DO skip the ISS portion of the super fairs. I am not saying schools necessarily need to actively search for candidates in databases, but they are getting quality applicants through SA. If they want to meet them F2F, they do it at the SA fairs. They may very well get good applicants from ISS, but they aren't meeting them at ISS fairs. So if I am doing the legwork of contacting the schools and they hire from either database, ISS holds no advantage over SA. However, if that school wants to meet me, I as a candidate would need to either travel to the school (neither company has an edge) or go to a fair the school is attending (giving SA the edge). So as a candidate contacting schools, yes, SA gives me the edge.

Meanwhile you claim schools don't skip the super fairs. Well, why did only two European schools attend the ISS BKK fair when far more attended SA BKK? They DO skip ISS BKK, then attend SA BKK, CIS LON, and SA LON. Why would they do that if they prefer or heavily hire through ISS? The answer is they don't. They either hire through other agencies or no agency at all. So when making a decision of which agency of the two to use, I want the ones schools are using.

You also contradict yourself. If schools aren't hiring through the database ("don't have to go hunting through the database") and they aren't hiring through fairs ("your definition of access is fairs, the data base doesnt go away because you define access as fairs"), why on earth would I sign up with ISS?

No, fairs are not the sole definition of access, but they still represent a vital F2F access point. If I am doing the school-by-school application, ISS offers no advantage over SA (again, if anything their smaller database is a disadvantage). So as a candidate, I want maximum access. SA offers the better database (maximizing my access) and fair attendance (again, maximizing my access). Schools, meanwhile, are sifting through the candidates that come to them, either through direct application (meaning either company or none at all is fine) or through F2F contact (fairs--meaning SA is the better option).

You keep saying ISS is the more elite and selective database, but you offer no evidence of this. ISS requires only a teaching license and a Bachelors to be listed. That is not exactly a highly selective process and is the same minimum as with SA. As for schools, again, what is the screening process? There is a lot of junk represented by ISS, too. In fact, you said so yourself. So the only evidence you have offered in support of your claim that ISS is more selective is that you think they are more elite. I sincerely hope you require your students to support their points with a bit more evidence and - than that.

You claim that ISS treats its "special snowflakes" better--well, great. Does that mean ISS personally contacts those top schools and vouches for you based solely on the paperwork you submit to them? Will they arrange a F2F meeting for you? If not, why use them? What help do they offer their snowflakes that they don't offer the peons? And if you are one of their snowflakes, do you really need the agency's help getting that job? So tell me again why that means ISS is the better agency for finding a job in Europe? After all, that was the point of discussion. How precisely is ISS more specialized, either for schools or for candidates?

Yes, it is foolish to take the position of a recruiter if all evidence points in a different direction. It is not foolish if the evidence supports the recruiter's statement. When a recruiter tells me (again, when just chatting at the hotel in our shared language and his school is not on my list) that his school will no longer be recruiting through ISS--and then they stop attending ISS events they used to attend--his actions match his statements and the other evidence I have.

You say I assume lesser known ISs are good--well, maybe, maybe not. Sometimes they are just new. Sometimes reputations are based on the past and the school has changed (which can happen in either direction--a school can rest on its laurels or a school can get new leadership to undo the mess that it was). Meanwhile you forget that there are TONS of teachers happy at schools you personally consider lesser quality because they are able to work in professionally challenging and dynamic classrooms, have access to PD, and most importantly, do good work with kids. If reputation of a school eclipses the actual day-to-day grind with kids in your eyes, well, you may need to reconsider your profession.

Furthermore, I am still baffled by your concept of tiered schools. We all know there are a few "elites," tier 1 schools (top notch), tier 2 schools (still really good), and tier three (in which there are the "floaters" who are close to tier 2 and the "bottom of the barrel" types). You continually say "top schools" and "bottom schools" and refer only to a few elites. Is there actually a tier 1 or 2 in your book? Since we are talking about European schools in particular and you are apparently in Europe, perhaps you can educate us a bit. Which schools are hiring through ISS? Please feel free to include the sources of your information. I am particularly interested in schools in the countries that didn't attend fairs--Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or the UK, for example.

You may not be interested in convincing me, but at least I offered multiple sources for my claim. I have offered a recruiter, a listing of schools attending fairs, and the minimum requirements of the two companies in question for candidates. Yes, the minimum requirements are evidence that both companies rep the good and the bad. I can also offer that I have met people at fairs that make me wonder how they ever got teaching licenses (both ISS and SA). As neither of us can go beyond that in terms of assessing candidates, we must accept that based on the minimums, there are bound to be good and bad teachers at both agencies. I could make equal lists of good and bad schools for each agency (which would heavily overlap, BTW). It is not just my perception.

So how is ISS better for getting a job in the EU (for top and/or bottom)? Tell me specifically how a teacher signed up with them has an edge in getting a job in the EU--the step-by-step process.

As to what you were saying to Walter, you again contradict yourself. You say recruiters prefer the more selective candidate pool, then you say they prefer the bigger fairs. So which is it? Tell us the process recruiters use so that we can all make the best decisions based on our own resumes and which schools we want (again, specific to EU for this thread). Explain why a good EU school would attend two or three fairs but not ISS BKK--yet still look first at an ISS candidate.

You say superstar ITs don't need to chase anyone, but the reality is that even the best teachers still have to apply, interview, and make decisions. No, the elite schools don't need to hunt for quality applicants, but they do still need to snap up the best teachers before another school does. You make it sound like the best teachers and schools magically find each other with no effort on anyone's part, but again, this isn't reality. Even the best schools use the fairs (even if they do most of their heavy lifting before the signup session), and even the best teachers use the fairs (depending on what they want and when and where jobs are available--and even if they do all their interviews before the signups).

Walter does not sound like an admin, but like someone with a personal issue with you. You do not sound like an admin, but like a teacher with an elitism complex.


> I wasnt accepted into ISS when I first started out in IE.

Maybe this contributes to your mistaken belief that they are somehow more selective? Funny, I was accepted when I first started out in IE. I switched to SA because they were the better option, and I have never regretted that.

PsyGuy, would it kill you to admit you are wrong? Or at least provide some support for your argument?
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Reply

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Thames Pirate
>
> Only lower tier ISs actively search for candidates. They get so many
> applications they dont have to go hunting through the database. You assume
> recruiters want to meet all candidates in person before hiring. They can
> just as easily, meet them at another fair, CIS, etc. ISs dont skip the BKK
> super fair, thats why its a super fair, because ISS and BKK are bother
> there.
>
> Its not elitism, because your naive. Again, your definition of access is
> fairs, the data base doesnt go away because you define access as fairs. ISs
> are reped by ISS, thats why they have a database. ISS is the more elite
> and selective database, an IS uses SA when they need more candidates that
> arent as competitive.
>
> Again, fairs are not the sole definition of access.
>
> ISS represents a lot less junk. You assume thse lessor known ISs are good,
> they arent, if they were they would be better known.
>
> ISS accepts far fewer poor candidates and ISs
>
> Im not interested in convincing you, and your one recruiter is not
> persuasive, ore possesses merit. It would be foolish taking the position of
> a recruiter, they hve their own agenda and priorities that do not often
> allign with candidates.
>
> Minimum barriers to entry are just that minimums. As Ive written before ISS
> is either feast or famine, either you are ignored or attended too, getting
> in, and getting ignored is not the experience I am referencing when
> discussing the positive ISS experience.
>
> Your claim that "both companies rep the good and bad candidates and
> schools" is not reality it is just your perception and position.
>
> So no, ISS is the better agency for EU.
>
> @Walter
>
> Its not silly when its accurate, its just more smoke and mirrors by admins.
> ISS is more selective. Ive done more recruiting than you have, even before
> your "30 years".
>
> There is nothing reversed about the changes in premium agencies, SA became
> the generalist, and ISS specialized.
>
> The ISS fair is smaller, and thats advantage as I have written before, its
> a more intimate fair, meaning more time with recruiters, and fewer
> participants means less competition, of course as an admin bigger is better
> from that side of a table, you want ITs to be more stressed and anxious. It
> has everything to do with being more selective.
> ISS isnt failing, they have grown up, and no longer are interested in being
> the anything and everything that SA needs to be.
>
> Superstar ITs dont need to chase anyone, nor do elite tier ISs.
>
> @Walter is no more than a admin with an agenda towing the corporate line
> with smoke and mirrors, and fear mongering.
>
> @WT123
>
> I wasnt accepted into ISS when I first started out in IE.
---------------------------------
Have you recently looked at a list of schools that attended the SA and ISS fairs in BKK (for one example)? ISS' list of schools hardly reads like a list of all good to great schools much elite schools. Look at the names (can't list them here) and tell me that many/most don't fall into the less well known category that you say means that they aren't good.

Search also has some of these schools. That was the pirate's point. You deny this but look at the list and it is clear you are denying the facts which you hold so dear.
wrldtrvlr123
Posts: 1173
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
Location: Japan

Re: Reply

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

Thames Pirate wrote:

> PsyGuy, would it kill you to admit you are wrong? Or at least provide some support
> for your argument?
------------------------------
It well might. He does have his strong points but sadly this is not one of them.
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: Reply

Post by Thames Pirate »

> It well might. He does have his strong points but sadly this is not one of them.

Apparently! Oh, well. I think I have made the point clearly. For Europe, SA is clearly the better choice of the two. CIS is also good. I can't speak to elsewhere in the world as we have always been focused on Europe (willing to go elsewhere and looking at schools all over, but primarily Europe). Therefore we know the most about those schools.

I am still curious, though, about his handful of elites and every other school being lower tier even though he and everyone else would acknowledge there is a tier 1, tier 2, and that there is a variety in tier 3.
yoplay
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:19 pm

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by yoplay »

Walter's earlier post pretty much sums up my thoughts on this topic.

The ISS vs Search question has always intrigued me, and up until when I last went to my last fair a few years ago, it seemed like there really wasn't any significance between the two.

This year however, I took a look at the school attending ISS Bangkok vs. ISS Search. There was no comparison in which fair I'd want to go to as Search had by far the superior offering of schools. And now ISS doesn't even have a Boston fair. I'm curious about what took place that finally led to Search winning out in this age old competition.

For my previous three fairs I've gone through ISS, and I was always happy with the service they provided. Given this recent shift however, I don't see how I wouldn't switch to Search the next time we're ready to make move to another posting.
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

ISS is clearly the best agency for EU and superstar ITs.

@yoplay

This isnt the first year ISS hasnt had a BOS fair. SA didnt win so much as ISS cant compete with SAs fair schedule, SA is everywhere, and boutiques (like ISS) cant compete with general retailers like Walmart, and H&M. SA kept adjusting and adding fairs. Their most recent was a CSA fair to compete with AASSA

Simple, fairs arent everything and if your a superstar, high demand IT you dont need a fair.

@WT123

I have, but again fairs are not the totality of access, if you operationally define "best" as most fairs, than yes SA wins, you might as well just claim SA wins by fiat. ISS recruits ITs before the fair, its just like A list celebrities, Brad Pitt, Angelina Jolie do not show up to auditions, and rock star ITs dont go to cattle calls recruiting event fairs if they can help it and when they do they are going between the ISS and the SA fairs for first night recruiting.
Walter
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:39 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Walter »

Poor Old Psyguy can never accept that he is just dead wrong. He has never been a recruiter, isn't attached to any of these major agencies and quite simply doesn't know what he's talking about. Pay heed to him at your peril!
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Comment

Post by PsyGuy »

More admin fear mongering and smoke and mirrors from the League of PsyGuy Nemesis.
Walter
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:39 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Walter »

No fear-mongering, Dave. I'm just saying you don't know what you're talking about. I know who you are, and you know I know. You simply don't have any credibility when it comes to advising teachers about international education.

You always refuse to accept ownership when people call your bluff(s), and you just continue to bluster. Anyone who knows anything about teacher recruitment will tell you that you are absolutely wrong re ISS catering to the premier teacher candidates and being the boutique agency. ISS would kill to have 650 teachers at its fairs - which is what they used to have 20 years ago - but they simply can't attract the candidates.

By the way, you don't have much credibility with Greeks or Greek either - first with Diogenes and now the League of Psyguy Nemesis. It should be "Nemeses" duh.
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

There aren't really any. They are signed up with both.

And yes, even superstar ITs have to apply to elite schools. They can do that through any agency or without an agency. They may not need the fair, but they need to apply. So how does ISS give an edge? Do they contact schools on your behalf and do the applying for you, then fly you to the schools to interview?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

Reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Walter

More smoke and mirrors, and self proclamations of an admin. You dont know what you think you know and never have.

@MartElla

There really arent any, the Elite ISs are repped by both premium agencies SA and ISS.

@Thames Pirate

No they dont apply, not in the conventional sense. By the time you are a superstar IT you dont participate in recruiting the way lower classed ITs do. At that point in their career there are only a handful, and maybe 1 or 2 ISs that a superstar IT is interested in. Those superstar ITs have a network, direct access to HOSs, and their current HOS is friends with those HOSs in the elite tier. The IT identifies a vacancy, they send off an email to the HOS (not the HR process advertised for other ITs), phone calls/emails get made, a virtual interview happens and maybe a meet and greet, then you get the offer and appointment. Superstar ITs dont "apply" in the conventional understanding.

ISS consultants are far more proactive than SA associates are, assuming your a valuable commodity to ISS.
Walter
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:39 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Walter »

"No they dont apply, not in the conventional sense. By the time you are a superstar IT you dont participate in recruiting the way lower classed ITs do. At that point in their career there are only a handful, and maybe 1 or 2 ISs that a superstar IT is interested in. Those superstar ITs have a network, direct access to HOSs, and their current HOS is friends with those HOSs in the elite tier. The IT identifies a vacancy, they send off an email to the HOS (not the HR process advertised for other ITs), phone calls/emails get made, a virtual interview happens and maybe a meet and greet, then you get the offer and appointment. Superstar ITs dont "apply" in the conventional understanding.

ISS consultants are far more proactive than SA associates are, assuming your a valuable commodity to ISS."

The first paragraph is largely gibberish. The last sentence is complete gibberish. @psy, I really don't know what you're trying to prove with this notion of the "superstar IT" versus "lower class ITs". You make the whole process sound like some kind of freemasonry where this tiny elite of teachers, whose names are recognised by school heads the world over, can choose where to where to work next on the strength of a secret handshake. What a bizarre idea! Really, who tells you this stuff? It may be that a school head may call another and say "I have a really good teacher who's set her heart on working in your school..." (I do something like that every year) but that's as far as things go. There is no secret list of Premier League teachers anywhere.

Can you name an ISS consultant who is far more proactive than any of the SEARCH Associates? I've never come across one. Indeed, the opposite is more likely to be true, since there is a direct financial benefit to a Search Associate for selling on a teacher.

Please stop spreading these silly stories!
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

If they are so well connected, they don't need either agency. If these immortals are simply firing off an email, why use ISS? What do they gain? Also, why would those schools hire at fairs if they had such magical unicorn candidates appear out of the mist? Since they do (and yes, they do hire at fairs), why not go with the company they are using for that hiring?
PsyGuy
Posts: 10789
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:51 am
Location: Northern Europe

reply

Post by PsyGuy »

@Walter

At no point in my previous reply do I use the term list. Keep peddling the smoke and mirrors and the ad hominem attacks.

@Thames Pirate

An invite to the fair for the meet and greet, curiosity, convenience. Same reasons to a differing degree that lower class ITs enlist premium agencies. ISS is less expensive, and since the end of the ISS fair coincides with the start of the SA BKK fair, its a less expensive option to schedule the meet.

The vast majority of ITs are not superstar class ITs an IS would love to staff their entire faculty with superstar ITs its just not available.

Many dont bother with a premium agency at all. They just fly in too BKK meet and greet, have dinner and depart.
Thames Pirate
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

So they DO go to the fair for the meet and greet or to staff positions for which they haven't found that unicorn. Well, then they are going to the SA fairs.

Your "ISS consultants are more proactive" claim has no support and no explanation of how they actually give you an edge. Again, the unicorns don't need the agencies, and to fill the gaps when they can't find unicorns, the schools use SA.

I think I have made my case pretty thoroughly.
Post Reply