ISS versus Search

PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Strongly disagree. ISS has better EU clients than SA does, and ISS has a greater EU concentration of ISs to SA based on total size of their database. The ISS BKK fair is before the SA fair, its smaller and more intimate. ISS is a far better option for EU ISs than SA.

@SJ

ISS is still a superior experience IF you are a candidate they value. I do understand their rational for the iFairs, but its become a failure.
Thames Pirate
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

Click through the schools attending the fairs. You will see only a handful of European schools represented.

I once had a conversation with a recruiter (no, we were not interested in his school; our conversation was based on a shared native language) from a top notch school in a desired WE country while at an ISS fair. He told me straight up to go with SA. His school no longer attends the ISS fairs.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Your recruiter was either cognitively or geographically challenged, they claimed their IS no longer attended the ISS fairs while AT an ISS fair.

Its a red herring to compare fair attendance. ISS and SA share only one fair (BKK), and SA has more fairs, more significantly SA holds a fair in LON, of course its going to be heavier on EU ISs. Compare the SA LON fair to the CIS LON fair. The ISS database is better for EU ISs than SA.
Thames Pirate
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

No, he said that was their last year doing anything with ISS. They still show up on the interactive map for ISS (and I am assuming therefore the database), but they don't attend any events, etc. and haven't since that year. If you look at the list of schools for recruiting fairs for ISS, you will see only a handful of European schools at all. BKK had two--AAS Moscow and QSI (which hardly counts), Seattle had NONE, and Atlanta, which is late in the season, has 11, with one of them QSI again. SA London had over 40 (their BKK list is no longer online). No schools from Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Poland, Luxembourg, Denmark, or the UK (among others) attended physical ISS fairs at all. Only one each from France, Italy, Netherlands, and Spain attended. So slim pickings. Only one or two additional European schools attended the iFairs, and any school can Skype! So they aren't actively using ISS for recruiting.

So if you are going by the ISS website map, great--there are roughly equal numbers of European schools on the two (though I would argue that Search still has a few more--look at Denmark, for example--only Copenhagen shows up, while Search also has Esbjerg and Aarhus, both of which are newer). If you are going by fair attendance, which is more indicative of active recruiting through an agency, ISS's European contingent is almost non-existent. Granted, they do have some quality schools (AS Paris, for example)--but those same schools are listed with SA as well. If you want a job in Europe, you should go through SA, not ISS.

Again, when a recruiter tells me to pick the other agency because they are better, I'm going with that. He backed up his words with action--as I said, that school no longer actively attends ISS fairs. Furthermore, when a European school that shows up in both databases sends someone all the way to BKK but only for SA and not ISS even though the BKK fair really required missing no school at all because it came first and just at the tail end of winter holidays? That tells me European schools are actively using SA but not ISS.

Sorry, but appearing in the database is meaningless if the school is not actively recruiting using the agency.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Fairs are not the database. Fair attendance is not sufficiently indicative of recruiting, upper tier ISs attend fairs just for show. Its a requirement of SA that they attend a fair or there is a fee. If you want an appointment in EU and your a valuable IT ISS and CIS is the stronger option.
sdakota

Re: ISS versus Search

Post by sdakota »

Is it worth it at all to be part of the agencies if you are very location dependant in the EU? Couldn't you just google the country, save the webpages, and then apply directly?
Thames Pirate
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

Oh, CIS is absolutely one of the better options for the EU. However, the question was ISS vs. SA.

You say ISS, but I wonder why you are insistent. If schools are not using the agency, then the database is meaningless. Why would they look through the ISS database when they are going to the SA fair? They don't. They look through the SA database because, as you have pointed out, ITs are often similar. Why look through multiple databases when you can get so many good candidates through just one and then plan your fair meet and greet? Many European schools attend more than one SA fair. That means they are actively recruiting through SA. They are looking at those candidates. They are searching the SA database. They are NOT then going to do the same for ISS when they aren't even attending the fairs, not even the iFair. Fair attendance isn't everything, but it IS indicative of where they are searching for candidates.

When we started IT, a friend (who had worked in WE) told us to sign up with ISS as the only way to get a job. Five years ago we attended an ISS fair in SF. There were not a ton of European schools. There are even fewer now. European schools are no longer using ISS (except a few holdouts like Stavanger, who has been using ISS for decades). They used to be THE agency, just as UNI used to be THE fair. Times have changed. Using common sense and looking at the evidence (where schools are going, for example) tells us this. The fact that a WE recruiter told me exactly that--and I only asked because I suspected as much based on other evidence--is further proof.

Schools aren't using the ISS database to find their candidates. They are using SA and independent recruiting through their websites and things like Schrole or direct applications. After all, even if they are going to the fair just to do that F2F meeting as you say the best schools do, they do still have to GO to the fair. If they were finding what they needed via ISS, they could save money and go to the iFairs, too. They aren't doing that.

Meanwhile, candidates can search either database. Most schools in WE pop up in both, but SA has the bigger database. Yes, there are schools in one or the other, and yes, there are schools in neither, but ultimately SA has more. As a candidate, I want the bigger database (always). I can do my own cutting if I don't think a school is worthy, but because ITs have different needs just as schools do, why let ISS decide what might not work for me? The bigger database lets the IT make that decision. There is NO reason to go with the smaller database other than a perceived elitism that nobody but you seems to recognize--after all, there is still plenty of "poo," as you like to call it, at ISS.

The database is meaningless if schools aren't using it to search for candidates.

Sorry PsyGuy, but on this one you are just plain wrong.

@sdakota
Yes and no. It depends on HOW location specific you are. If you only want to work in Denmark, for example, yes, you could apply independently. However, if you are looking at most places in Europe or are Europe-plus-a-few-places, then an agency might make sense. The agencies also offer a place to store references, documents, etc. and offer access to fairs for that meet-and-greet. If Brussels, Helsinki, and Madrid all want a f2f, it's cheaper and easier to go to the SA London fair, for example, than to travel to all three cities--and you have options if you get none of the three.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@sdakota

I disagree with @ Thames Pirate. In general yes. If you have a very broad job search than a premium agency can be a real asset, and convenience, especially if your not really looking to go very deep into the tiers. If you have a very specific or restricted job search or are intent on an exhaustive job search, then a premium agency will only give you a handful of ISs and require you to still do an extensive amount of work. Its very simple to search and book mark the upper tier ISs in a particular region.

@Thames Pirate

ISS do use the agency fairs are not synonymous "use". Your one recruiter said such and such means nothing. Why, ISS candidates are better, ISS is more selective, its less time for leadership and a recruiter sorting the trash in the net. ISs attend more SA fairs because there are more SA fairs to attend.

UNI was never "THE" fair. SA has the bigger database of junk, the smaller database is the better database. Your claims are inaccurate and we disagree.
Thames Pirate
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

No, fairs are not synonymous with use of database, but again, why would a recruiter search through a database to find candidates (s)he will never meet in person when with the same few clicks they can find a list of people they can meet in person? They wouldn't. Meanwhile they are attending two or three SA fairs but none of the ISS fairs. That is not just because there are more SA fairs. Why would a school skip ISS BKK, then attend SA BKK and SA London? Why go to both SA fairs but not the major ISS fair? They are finding what they need at SA BKK and SA London, but not at ISS BKK. They aren't bothering with ISS at all.

You say ISS has the best candidates, but again, that is your perceived elitism talking. What makes you say that? What is an eliminating factor or barrier for a teacher being listed for ISS that is not a problem for SA? What makes an ISS teacher a better candidate? And if that were really the case, why would the schools not stick with ISS? They would find all they needed through ISS and wouldn't need to bother with SA, which is a much newer company. Instead they quit going to ISS fairs and started going to SA fairs. Not just attending both, but actually going to SA over ISS. That means they were finding what they needed at SA and not ISS. Therefore they are not recruiting with ISS.

You also say that smaller is better because they are more selective, but again, what is the barrier for ISS for schools that doesn't exist for SA? You say ISS is more selective, but ISS still represents a lot of "junk," too. Meanwhile good but lesser known or newer schools aren't listed with ISS but are with SA. Why is that? Because they recognize that ISS is not valuable to them and that they can have their needs met through SA. Furthermore, the point I made was about geography. Some people don't care about teaching in a crummy school as long as it's in Europe. So again, SA has the edge there.

Both agencies accept good AND bad candidates and good AND bad schools. There is no elite status on either side except in your mind. Meanwhile the active recruiting happens at SA, not ISS. Perceptions of elitism are meaningless (just like you always say, it's the offers that count). Again, a recruiter telling me something IS more meaningful because he is telling me his strategy--and you are not a recruiter, so your perception does nothing to convince me that recruiters are looking at ISS. The behavior of his school matches the behavior of other schools, and he did say that was the direction in which his peers were also moving. So yes, I give it some weight. Far more weight than your baseless "better candidates" claim! I would be foolish not to listen to a recruiter talking about recruiting strategies, and even more foolish to take your advice regarding what is elite over his advice on what schools are actually doing.

So yes, for Europe, SA is the better of the two. If I were to sign up with another agency and were looking at Europe, it would be CIS over ISS.

And I said the same thing to @sdakota you did. If you are highly specific, go directly to the schools. If you are a bit broader, go with the agency.
Walter
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Walter »

"Why, ISS candidates are better, ISS is more selective, its less time for leadership and a recruiter sorting the trash in the net. ISs attend more SA fairs because there are more SA fairs to attend."

This is such a foolish comment. Dave, I don't know why you keep on about this. Especially since you have never attended a fair as a recruiter and are in no position to make such statements.

20 years ago, ISS and ECIS (now CIS) were the leaders in recruitment and SEARCH was a wannabe. The story is completely reversed now. The ISS Fair in Bkk is tiny in comparison to SEARCH Bkk - about 180 candidates to to 550. CIS in London has 250 candidates compared with 700+ at SEARCH London. ISS in Atlanta this year will have less than half the candidates that showed up for SEARCH Cambridge. This has nothing to do with more selectivity on the part of ISS and CIS and everything to do with the fact that twice as many schools show up to SEARCH events. Good candidates chase good schools, and good schools chase good teachers.

Please stop posting your silly blurts as though they are facts and stick to what you are good at: trawling through Google to find answers for obscure questions on teacher certification in Botswana.
Thames Pirate
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Thames Pirate »

No need to make it a personal attack.

The reality is that the barrier for entry for candidates is pretty comparable (Bachelors, teaching cert OR 2 years--really, how is that selective?). So PsyGuy's argument about the best candidates is based only on his perception? memory? while the reality is that both companies rep the good and bad candidates and schools. You can be wildly successful with either and supremely disappointed with either.

So my take is go with the one that has the most options you like. We were interested in Europe, so ISS just wasn't a viable option for us.
wrldtrvlr123
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by wrldtrvlr123 »

Thames Pirate wrote:
> No need to make it a personal attack.
>
> The reality is that the barrier for entry for candidates is pretty comparable (Bachelors,
> teaching cert OR 2 years--really, how is that selective?). So PsyGuy's argument
> about the best candidates is based only on his perception? memory? while the reality
> is that both companies rep the good and bad candidates and schools. You can be
> wildly successful with either and supremely disappointed with either.
>
> So my take is go with the one that has the most options you like. We were interested
> in Europe, so ISS just wasn't a viable option for us.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, it's probably because PG switched from Search to ISS (as I seem to recall him posting) a while back so obviously they are now the more elite/discerning organization.
Walter
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Walter »

@wt123: "Well, it's probably because PG switched from Search to ISS." That makes it sound like an active choice.
@Thames Pirate: This isn't about personal attacks. It is about alerting readers to the danger of being overpowered by one voice. Psyguy is a forum bully and whenever he is taken on by people like myself or Sid we are are condemned as "Admin" who are inevitably going to lie and deceive. If a teacher objects to something he says, the term used is the contemptuous "Admin Cheerleader" - another group of people who can't be trusted. He insults and demeans candidates looking for advice by using terms like "Tourist Teachers" and scoffs at their chances of getting jobs. He is like the Donald Trump of ISR: "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". He drowns out all of the other voices simply by the interminability of his posts. Not all that he says is silly or misplaced, but the danger to the novice candidate is that he acquires automatic credibility in all that he says. We should ALWAYS stand up to bullies.
PsyGuy
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Post by PsyGuy »

@Thames Pirate

Only lower tier ISs actively search for candidates. They get so many applications they dont have to go hunting through the database. You assume recruiters want to meet all candidates in person before hiring. They can just as easily, meet them at another fair, CIS, etc. ISs dont skip the BKK super fair, thats why its a super fair, because ISS and BKK are bother there.

Its not elitism, because your naive. Again, your definition of access is fairs, the data base doesnt go away because you define access as fairs. ISs are reped by ISS, thats why they have a database. ISS is the more elite and selective database, an IS uses SA when they need more candidates that arent as competitive.

Again, fairs are not the sole definition of access.

ISS represents a lot less junk. You assume thse lessor known ISs are good, they arent, if they were they would be better known.

ISS accepts far fewer poor candidates and ISs

Im not interested in convincing you, and your one recruiter is not persuasive, ore possesses merit. It would be foolish taking the position of a recruiter, they hve their own agenda and priorities that do not often allign with candidates.

Minimum barriers to entry are just that minimums. As Ive written before ISS is either feast or famine, either you are ignored or attended too, getting in, and getting ignored is not the experience I am referencing when discussing the positive ISS experience.

Your claim that "both companies rep the good and bad candidates and schools" is not reality it is just your perception and position.

So no, ISS is the better agency for EU.

@Walter

Its not silly when its accurate, its just more smoke and mirrors by admins. ISS is more selective. Ive done more recruiting than you have, even before your "30 years".

There is nothing reversed about the changes in premium agencies, SA became the generalist, and ISS specialized.

The ISS fair is smaller, and thats advantage as I have written before, its a more intimate fair, meaning more time with recruiters, and fewer participants means less competition, of course as an admin bigger is better from that side of a table, you want ITs to be more stressed and anxious. It has everything to do with being more selective.
ISS isnt failing, they have grown up, and no longer are interested in being the anything and everything that SA needs to be.

Superstar ITs dont need to chase anyone, nor do elite tier ISs.

@Walter is no more than a admin with an agenda towing the corporate line with smoke and mirrors, and fear mongering.

@WT123

I wasnt accepted into ISS when I first started out in IE.
Walter
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Re: ISS versus Search

Post by Walter »

Voice 1 Walter:
"Psyguy is a forum bully and whenever he is taken on by people like myself or Sid we are are condemned as "Admin" who are inevitably going to lie and deceive."

30 minutes later:

Voice 2 Psyguy:
"@Walter is no more than a admin with an agenda towing the corporate line with smoke and mirrors, and fear mongering."

The irony is that it's Dave who does the fear-mongering with his stories of contracts being revoked at will, with his advice on the other Forum to candidates who have scored jobs already going to UNI just because they have paid for the trip and who, he says, may see the people who hired them looking to replace them for someone better and with his warning to candidates going to fairs to trust no other candidates because they may be sociopaths.

Dave, I go to all these fairs, and I see the resumes of candidates and the lists of schools attending. There are more rookie teachers - in proportion - who attend the ISS and CIS Fairs than go to the SEARCH Big Three Fairs, and there are more top tier schools that attend the SEARCH Big Three Fairs than attend those of ISS and CIS. This is data, Dave. You're supposed to like this stuff.
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